TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:16 pm

GTV wrote: Off the point but I have to say... If the type 4 was so good, it's successor (the waterboxer) would have more in common with it than the type 1.
That isn't the case.

The 911-4 is only comparable in cylinders and layout to a VW engine. Outside of that it is apples vs oranges. Power output aside, it has many advantages. Is it worth the cost? To some, perhaps. I think it's cool that someone made it an option.

Actually the waterboxer has very little to do with a type 1 other than a few "similar" parts and specs.

While the 1.9 used a bug like 69mm stroke and the same big end size.....different rods and crank.
The 2.1 was a 76mm.
Both WB cases....largely the same case were all aluminum....and a totally differnt center main bearing design.

Outside of some visual similarities to a type one in the general shape of the case.....its not based on a type 1 or a type 4. It simply has similar form factor to fit into roughly the same space in the same type of vehicle.

Why would they not base it on a type 4?.....uh....why would they need to?

The type 4 was made differently.......better case material, beefier crank, beefier main bearing journals, larger oil cooler, full flow filter, no need for fill behind #3 to prevent cracks, more head fins for cooling, larger displacement, bigger valves, no need for case inserts for head studs, better crank mounted fan cooling system (a page stolen from type 3), a rear crankshaft seal finally instead of an .....oil slinger :roll: ....an alternator instead of a generator, higher oil capacity, factory windage tray etc..

All of that and the type 4 engine was still basically a very upgraded new version of the type 1 aircooled motor. It was also more expensive to build from the get go....but better performance and lifespan....at least in its original applications.

One could also simply ask the question if....the type 1 engine was so good...why didnt VW simply hang all of those nifty type 4 improvements on the existing 1600 DP and be done with it? :wink:

The reason they didnt make the wasserboxer based on the type 4 is that since they were going to water cooling and a totally different injection and ignition system.....they didn't need anything the type 4 FORM had. For that matter.....the only thing they took from the type 1 is the basic form factor.

Not needing a crank mounted fan and cooling manifold....with water cooling.....it would not need to look like the type 4. And.....as a matter of fact...once you remove the cooling shroud and fan...aside from the oil filter stand and oil breather box.....type 1 and type 4 cases are not hugely different in form....or function.

The WB heads...have nothing to do with either engine. Ray

Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:19 pm

Bergman :P

You build a VW with "Porsche" quality and attention to detail, it will have porsche performance and durability. It is not easy to do. It is not easy to rebuild a subaru either, nor a rotary.
ALL of these engines, the reputation they have NOT due to foolproof design, is due to how well they were built. The designs are not fool proof, more like fool traps.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:33 pm

Yeah! I'm gonna leave this run-on paragraph alone. WTF? :shock:

stallion777 wrote: Hey guys I've recently started looking at type 4 motors and down the road may be interested in one. A while back a had a beetle which was highly modded and I dropped thousands in it. I was younger and bought many things mainly for the looks and if the price was good. That car was sold and regretted selling it. One huge mistake I made with that car was the engine. I bought a 2332cc turnkey motor with Porsche fan, 44 dual carbs. The motor looked awesome and sounded great. At first the motor seemed great and seemed reliable. After many miles at was CRAP. It leaked oil all over the place, overheated, blew oil lines, rough starting and for the size was not impressive with power or acceleration. According to the build sheet it was about 130hp but didn't feel like it but sounded the part. Worst experience I ever had with a car and customer service with the seller was worst. Nice guy when he wants to sell but after i sold its all your problem. My current beetle now has a 1650 single carb single port which is fine for now but when I pay off some bills and save money up, I'll would want more power. I want about 200hp and BE RELIABLE. This motor caught my eye because it looks and sounds exotic, is still German design, still aircooled and easy to install and claims Porsche reliability. I love the Subaru engine idea but car would need a lot of mods and cutting to work. My car is a 1963 swing axle beetle. 30 grand is insane for just motor but if you got money to kill then its cool I guess but I'm not rich. My old motor was a type 1 and the bad experience makes me hesitant for another type 1. But I can say the motor was CRAP and at the time I did not do as much research as I do now or I would have never bought a motor from that company. Bernie Bergman was the engine builder..............

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:29 am

Don't underestimate people's willingness to spend money to have a quality product.

Some of it is "pride of ownership", some of it is "bragging rights", the proportion varies from one individual to the next.

In the V-dub world, we tend to forget :lol:

Why buy an expensive Swiss watch, when a 19.95$ digital can do the same thing, even more precisely?

Hence polo engines...

Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:48 am

modok wrote: Bergman :P

You build a VW with "Porsche" quality and attention to detail, it will have porsche performance and durability. It is not easy to do. It is not easy to rebuild a subaru either, nor a rotary.
ALL of these engines, the reputation they have NOT due to foolproof design, is due to how well they were built. The designs are not fool proof, more like fool traps.

X2

Yes......you will get a certain level of benefit by design when you choose.....as the term in the video noted.....one engine architecture over another.......but in reality, the attention to detail in building is what really sets them apart in how long they last and how well they perform....barring any major goof ups in choices of material quality or component configuration.
Ray

Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:37 am

FreeBug wrote: Don't underestimate people's willingness to spend money to have a quality product.

Some of it is "pride of ownership", some of it is "bragging rights", the proportion varies from one individual to the next.

In the V-dub world, we tend to forget :lol:

Why buy an expensive Swiss watch, when a 19.95$ digital can do the same thing, even more precisely?

Hence polo engines...

exactly

http://www.polomotor.com/

Quote: The Polo 930-4 crankcase is manufactured to the highest standards of foundry process and metallurgy. The foundry we use is the best in the business and the same one used by Donovan, Shelby, Fontana, Shaver, Chrysler Hemi and Arias. Only 100% Virgin ingot is used throughout and the metal is heat treated with two different aerospace processes.
Our crankcase also incorporates five main journal supports for added strength. The oil to the crankshaft is routed from the front to the back as is the 911 standard and has an added oil passage at the center main.
Machining is completed by state of the art C & C machine and tolerances are held to the same strict standards of a factory prepared 911 crankcase. The Polo crankcase will accept parts from different vintage 911 engines and has been fitted with many of the later air cooled model updates.

I was recently at an awesome event, www.tejastreffen.com , and one of these showed up in a 912. They sound and look fantastic. He was very popular at the show, you could tell he felt it was money well spent. I don't think money was any object for him at all

I haven't watched the Leno video, and I probably wont.

Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:44 am

if I had unlimited time and $ I too would be making a few diferent engines for what ever I wanted to. as for the c&c machines Ive never used them, just the CNC machines witch make all this perty eazy. and when it comes to the crank shaft you can build around one or just call scat and they will make ou what ever you want.. have you guys seen the duel lobe splined sliding camshafts?oh so sweet.

Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:22 am

GTV wrote: Off the point but I have to say... If the type 4 was so good, it's successor (the waterboxer) would have more in common with it than the type 1.
That isn't the case.

The 911-4 is only comparable in cylinders and layout to a VW engine. Outside of that it is apples vs oranges. Power output aside, it has many advantages. Is it worth the cost? To some, perhaps. I think it's cool that someone made it an option.
Production cost, - and the fact that the type 4 was over engineered in some aspects and under engineered in other.
The type 4 was on the drawing board for quite a while when the WBX was in its initial design stage. It was mainly discharged for weight and the fact that the designers did not want to redesign the housing for a cam drop to keep the large rods on at least a 53 mm rod journal mm rod journal. Had they done that it would have been a killer engine that would be a Subie worthy in strength and power potential.
I guess the type 4 was caught in the middle somewhere, leaving it between two chairs.
T

Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:28 pm

As I discovered years ago if you found an T-4 engine, and usually could get for nothing. Then Just rebuild it, change the cam, put a set of duel carbs, nice exhaust , and ignition. You have a Bullet proof 110 to 125 hp daily driver. Difference would be if it was 1.7 1.8 or a 2.0 The 2.0 was a stroker 71mm vs 66 mm of the 1.7 and 1.8

The engine will never over heat with it;s massive heads which are 1/3 larger then T-1 heads . Run strong forever in a light car and would be much less expensive to just rebuild it then building a T-1 to that size.

The cam is the major power factor in T-4's the FI Cam is ok for FI but not for performance.

Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:11 am

Blame it on the builder. A 2332 that only makes 130 HP is a tractor engine. Find the best builder you can, and you'll get your reliable 200 HP. Go with CB. They'll build it, dyno it, and provide support. They may even post a video of the dyno sesh on YouTube for you to have forever. Search CB Performance's page on YouTube to see all the awesome engines they've dyno'd.

Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:45 pm

7/12/15 Denver, Colorado. VW's, Porsche's, and Audi's were invited. Air and water cooled. Runner up in class voted on by the show car owners. Best of show Engine voted on by the VW, Porsche, and Audi business owners.

3 articles about the World's first POLO powered 912 can be found here. One in Europe and two in the U.S. www.reSeeWorks.com
The case is virgin cast aluminum. 5 main bearings, 11.3 CR, pulls hard from 3000 and spins to 7200, etc, etc, etc. And the sound is just awesome. The sound alone is worth the price. The early overhead cam Carrera engine and this overhead 2 cam 4 have a sound much different than a Type 1, Type 4, or a 356/912 616 based engine. The guy I bought the 912 from had a POLO in his 59A coupe. He took me for a ride. Within minutes I HAD to have one, period end of story. If you go to the tool bar on the site click 912 POLO Car then riders and drivers, find out what others experienced.
Chris Pomares

Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:10 am

I have to say, if I had the money, I'd do it in a second. Just seems so right.

I guess I should qualify that. Even though my current VW is a kit car, I'm otherwise very much a traditionalist. So, if I was doing a hot bug, I'd probably want a Type 1 engine. But, for my kit car, I'd love it. And, if I was doing a 912 that was already on the stock side, my first choice would probably be a 616. But, if I had a second 912 that was already off the stock path, man, this would be it. And I'd drop it into a 914 1.7/1.8 in a heartbeat.

Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:21 pm

A 914 would be a very nice conversion. Or maybe a Ghia with 944 Turbo suspension/brakes, Porsche 5 speed transmission, Porsche green gauges, 50's/60's Speedster or Carrera seats. I've never felt encumbered to keep things stock, but I do like to try to make things look close to period correct.
Dean the engine builder has a 356 Coupe he's grafting a tube frame with 993 suspension parts and a turbo POLO. He's shooting for 550 hp. They call him the Mad Scientist. It's wicked looking. He's had my car north of 135 and said there's still more. Just think what he can do with 550 hp.
Chris

Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:31 am

356 Speedster with POLO engine and sport exhaust.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NzBYVS68gI

Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:40 pm

The Polo motor is awesome. If I had the money I would have a 2.5 liter with over 200hp and fuel injection. Compliment this great motor with a Berg 5 speed and you have the ultimate Beetle that is still air cooled and German design engine. One can always dream, maybe I will win the lottery.......not gonna happen especially since I never play lol

Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:01 pm

That sounds like a great project and goal.
Chris

Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:16 pm

Any one that says a 200 HP type 1 engine is reliable is just not being realistic! It's a ticking time bomb good for a few blasts down the drag strip at best. Any engine block originally designed to house 40 HP, built as light as possible with only 3 mains for a four cylinder that separates the same direction as the power pulses... come on! We are not that stupid!

That Polo engine is super cool! In a class all by itself. That engine will still be running long after all our type 1s have been recycled into beer cans an floating in the pacific ocean!

Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:09 pm

cmpski wrote: 356 Speedster with POLO engine and sport exhaust.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NzBYVS68gI That thing has a wicked rasp to it when it revs! 8)

Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:37 pm

oprn wrote: Any one that says a 200 HP type 1 engine is reliable is just not being realistic! It's a ticking time bomb good for a few blasts down the drag strip at best. Any engine block originally designed to house 40 HP, built as light as possible with only 3 mains for a four cylinder that separates the same direction as the power pulses... come on! We are not that stupid!

Not true at all!

Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:16 pm

oprn wrote: Any one that says a 200 HP type 1 engine is reliable is just not being realistic! It's a ticking time bomb good for a few blasts down the drag strip at best. Any engine block originally designed to house 40 HP, built as light as possible with only 3 mains for a four cylinder that separates the same direction as the power pulses... come on! We are not that stupid!

Amen!

So true...