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Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:33 am

oprn wrote: Any one that says a 200 HP type 1 engine is reliable is just not being realistic! It's a ticking time bomb good for a few blasts down the drag strip at best. Any engine block originally designed to house 40 HP, built as light as possible with only 3 mains for a four cylinder that separates the same direction as the power pulses... come on! We are not that stupid!

That Polo engine is super cool! In a class all by itself. That engine will still be running long after all our type 1s have been recycled into beer cans an floating in the pacific ocean! you realy need to find a new engine builder.
and possiably that CLATTER will go away when it's done right. :shock: :wink:

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:04 pm

oprn wrote: Any one that says a 200 HP type 1 engine is reliable is just not being realistic! It's a ticking time bomb good for a few blasts down the drag strip at best. Any engine block originally designed to house 40 HP, built as light as possible with only 3 mains for a four cylinder that separates the same direction as the power pulses... come on! We are not that stupid!

That Polo engine is super cool! In a class all by itself. That engine will still be running long after all our type 1s have been recycled into beer cans an floating in the pacific ocean!

You appearently dont know who you are talking to when you come to the performance engine section on thesamba.

Many of us have ran our 200hp engines over and over down the track and also punish them in everyday driving.

Also, many of us have the money to purchase whatever we want, but simply choose the Type 1 VW because we love it.

So dont come on here and talk shit about what we love.

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:20 pm

jpaull wrote: oprn wrote: Any one that says a 200 HP type 1 engine is reliable is just not being realistic! It's a ticking time bomb good for a few blasts down the drag strip at best. Any engine block originally designed to house 40 HP, built as light as possible with only 3 mains for a four cylinder that separates the same direction as the power pulses... come on! We are not that stupid!

That Polo engine is super cool! In a class all by itself. That engine will still be running long after all our type 1s have been recycled into beer cans an floating in the pacific ocean!

You appearently dont know who you are talking to when you come to the performance engine section on thesamba.

Many of us have ran our 200hp engines over and over and also punish them in everyday driving.

Also, many of us have the money to purchase whatever we want, but simply choose the Type 1 VW because we love it.

So dont come on here and talk shit about what we love.

Preach it, brotha!

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:35 pm

jpaull wrote: oprn wrote: Any one that says a 200 HP type 1 engine is reliable is just not being realistic! It's a ticking time bomb good for a few blasts down the drag strip at best. Any engine block originally designed to house 40 HP, built as light as possible with only 3 mains for a four cylinder that separates the same direction as the power pulses... come on! We are not that stupid!

That Polo engine is super cool! In a class all by itself. That engine will still be running long after all our type 1s have been recycled into beer cans an floating in the pacific ocean!

You appearently dont know who you are talking to when you come to the performance engine section on thesamba.

Many of us have ran our 200hp engines over and over and also punish them in everyday driving.

Also, many of us have the money to purchase whatever we want, but simply choose the Type 1 VW because we love it.

So dont come on here and talk shit about what we love.

This is a little of what I am getting at.
While I agree and applaud that the technology in the Polo motor....is numerous steps ahead.....of the type 1 snd type 4.....and is ideal for those with the $ to spend for an exotic but functional engine.....or better yet those into serious road racing......

More than a couple of the items listed as higher tech in that engine (aside from the overhead can heads)......was already put into the type 4 engine.

While one would not have to spend anymore to upgrade the Polo motor for longevity.....I would wager that the FAT performance type 4 on that silver 356 in that video....is no less reliable, costs half as much at most.....puts out the same HP and has actually equal or more Porsche provenance than the Polo motor in the black car.

Ray

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:04 am

One's perspective is one's reality. We all pursue that which seems right to our own self.
I grew up in the VW/Porsche culture of So Bay So Cal in the 60's. Driving a 67 VW bus and looking and dreaming of Porsches in Vasek Polack's window across the street from Hap Jacobs Surf Shop in Hermosa Beach. It really started when I was about 8. A really old guy about 29 lived next door, had a light blue and red Speedster and would take me to Vasek Polak and show me Porsches around 1959 or 60. All I could see was the cars dash on the way there.
I've owned air (really oil) cooled and water cooled VW's and several Porsche's in the past. We're all building our own version of our ideal car. The world's first 912 POLO car is mine. I never want to do something someone else has already done. I've spent 5 years dialing in and making unique parts for this car. It's been fun and I'm not done yet. I have waaay over 6 figures in this car and have long stopped counting. That's cheap compared to the interiors I see put in some hot rods. I rent a building from a top interior shop owner here in Colorado. I've seen several cars that have close to 6 figures in the interior alone. Like I said one's perception is there reality. At 65 I've long quit judging others decisions based on my reality.
I can see several folks on this thread have very strong feelings about their preferred power plant be it a Type one, four, or POLO. For most and certainly those with many years in the game I doubt any opinions are being changed here. So whatever your preference, enjoy.
Chris

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:22 am

cmpski wrote: One's perspective is one's reality. We all pursue that which seems right to our own self.
I grew up in the VW/Porsche culture of So Bay So Cal in the 60's. Driving a 67 VW bus and looking and dreaming of Porsches in Vasek Polack's window across the street from Hap Jacobs Surf in Hermosa Beach.
I've owned air (really oil) cooled, water cooled VW's and several Porsche's in the past. We're all building our own version of our ideal car. The world's first 912 POLO car is mine. I never want to do something someone else has already done.
I can see several folks on this thread have very strong feelings about their preferred power plant be it a Type one, four, or POLO. For most and certainly those with many years in the game I doubt any opinions are being changed here. So whatever your preference, enjoy.
Chris

Well said! If you have the $ and its what you want...you will not be disappointed.
My points earlier were not a sleight at that awesome engine.....if most of what you want is the exotic and unique....and you have the cash....its very cool!

Ray

Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:51 am

Some early Porsche history on their first attempt at a 911 engine based 2 CAM 4.
Now they make a bunch of them with turbos.
Chris

http://www.reseeworks.com/netherlands-article.html

Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:32 am

Awesome car. I believe its the ultimate 4 cylinder air cooled motor. If everyone had one then it would not be so special.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:20 am

I wish everyone who wanted one could have one. I take no pleasure in being one of the few. There are about 50 in 356's around the world. The 901 Shop in FL. has the #2 912 POLO and there are about 8 more in various stages being built around the world now. I look forward to getting some of them together in a few years.
Chris

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:26 am

I want the flat fan version for a Type 3...

mock up...

beauty of a car you've got there Chris.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:28 am

Double post.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:39 am

raygreenwood wrote: cmpski wrote: One's perspective is one's reality. We all pursue that which seems right to our own self.
I grew up in the VW/Porsche culture of So Bay So Cal in the 60's. Driving a 67 VW bus and looking and dreaming of Porsches in Vasek Polack's window across the street from Hap Jacobs Surf in Hermosa Beach.
I've owned air (really oil) cooled, water cooled VW's and several Porsche's in the past. We're all building our own version of our ideal car. The world's first 912 POLO car is mine. I never want to do something someone else has already done.
I can see several folks on this thread have very strong feelings about their preferred power plant be it a Type one, four, or POLO. For most and certainly those with many years in the game I doubt any opinions are being changed here. So whatever your preference, enjoy.
Chris

Well said! If you have the $ and its what you want...you will not be disappointed.
My points earlier were not a sleight at that awesome engine.....if most of what you want is the exotic and unique....and you have the cash....its very cool!

Ray
I am with the above guys, whatever turns your crankshaft is reality and is right for you.
Here is my reality and what prompted my comment: I grew up on air cooled VWs, type 1,2&3s in the '60s and '70s. Love them! Always will have a soft spot in my heart for them.
But - time and technology moved on and left them in the dust. As did VW and for good reason. VW I believe did try but with the merger with Audi it became apparent that there were much, much better ways to go. And they did with spectacular results by the way! These results could never have been achieved with the type 1 air cooled engine.
These engines and cars are dinosaurs! We have museums for dinosaurs and The Samba is one of them!
I love coming here and browsing, so sweet to remember the old days and read about what folks are doing to preserve and enjoy the relics of the past that are dear to my own heart and up bringing.
So there are a few whoppers being told - ok fair enough. Not every Palaeontologist has it right. I get it, not many of them actually lived back there with the real thing...
So I am not trying to belittle the type 1 engine - just calling it what it is. The pinnacle of the type 1 engine from VW was the '66 Bug 1300cc 53 HP engine. It was the most dependable, longest lasting type 1 engine VW ever made. With proper care these engines were known to regularly(note: not just on occasion)run trouble free for over 100,000 miles. No other air cooled stock VW engine ever matched that in the kind of numbers that engine did.

In '69 Dad bought a brand new Bus. Type 1 1600 single port engine. Lasted 34,000 miles! Dad bought a replacement(VW factory was the builder in both cases guys!) and with extra care we got 45,000 miles out of it!

So it's the builder eh?

Over the next 6 or 7 years Dad and I learned to build engines for that Bus and other VWs that lasted longer than the factory ones. Very little attempt was made to increase HP, just longevity and that is hard won on these engines. The engine in that Bus now has 80,000 miles on it and just needing the valves done.

I guess that makes me a bad builder!

Come on guys! Anyone with a bit of mechanical ability and a basic set of hand tools can match or better the factory engines in reliability. Attention to detail is all it takes especially with all the good info and parts out there now...

If you are looking for a 200 HP type 1 engine that lasts - that dinosaur has never existed. Just like the Lock Ness Monster isn't in any museum I ever heard of.

You may come close to something that resembles it today but I will guarantee there will be NONE if the bones of the original type 1 engine in it's body. And it will cost you!

And how is that different from that Polo engine?

So here I am, started life in diapers eating Pablum(VWs), now I'm old, poor teeth an have to change my shorts every time I cough so don't rag on me for going back to where I came from and finishing my days in a beloved venerable VW. Whatever it's faults. It's just a hobby right?

Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:25 pm

How ever.....I don't think there very many guys that daily drive a 200hp Type 1, or any air cooled VW for that mater. Most are hobby cars that get driven 2 to 3 K a year. In 30 or 40 thousand miles with your big stroker Type ! your going to have to address valves and guides so how many years will that be? Would you put a Polo engine in your pride and joy and then daily drive it, I doubt it. Just sayin...

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:03 pm

I looked into that flat fan. That one sits on a POLO. They had one at the Lit show in LA last March. It was $8000.00. They cool really well but draw about twice the hp as a upright. What your not seeing in that picture are the pulleys and belt to turn that fan.

"oprn
If you are looking for a 200 HP type 1 engine that lasts - that dinosaur has never existed. Just like the Lock Ness Monster isn't in any museum I ever heard of.
You may come close to something that resembles it today but I will guarantee there will be NONE if the bones of the original type 1 engine in it's body. And it will cost you!
And how is that different from that Polo engine?"

I am no expert on type 1 engines as I haven't owned one since about 1975. My guess though is the new cast cases in the aftermarket are stronger than the originals. I also suspect I was stressing my engine a lot more by pushing a bus through the air as opposed to a bug or ghia.
How is a POLO different. Well it's based on a 911 engine. Dean's case is virgin cast of a much more expensive and better alloy, and based on a MUCH beefed up SC/Carrera/964/993 case. SC bottom ends are known to go 300,000 miles in some cases. 200K no problem, if serviced properly. It's cast buy the guys who cast huge drag and NASCAR blocks. It has 5 main bearings. Look how far apart the mains are on a VW or 616 based 356, 912 engine. There is a main on either side of every rod. The bottom end is a tank. If you put big hp though 3 main bearing cases those cranks are going to flex a little and probably flex more later.
Notice the huge oil pump. The car carries 3 gallons of Gibbs oil and is changed like all us old school guys change oil. Every 2 or 3K.

All the early VW and Porsche engines are awesome in their own right. The POLO is just something different.
Are the newer cars faster, more comfortable, and better in many ways? Yes. Do I enjoy their driving experience more? Nope, not even close. If I didn't have my car or couldn't afford it, I'd go out and buy a Ghia as fast as I could and personalize it like a bunch of folks here on The Samba.

I drive my car 2 to 3 K a year if I stay local. About 5 K if I drive from Colorado to California and back for some Porsche events late Summer or Fall.

Chris Pomares

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:11 pm

Both Chevy for their Corvair and Porsche used flat fans. For Porsche it was mostly a race car thing.
Corvair used belts and pulleys. Porsche drive gears.

I got the pictures doing a search of Porsche flat fans.
Chris

Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:21 pm

dsrtfox - we are singing from the same Hymn book man! :D

cmpski - Ok, I worded that wrong. I am well aware of the mechanical differences between that gorgeous Polo engine and a "type 1" engine with all the modern tricks. Neither of the engines have any direct linage to the 356, both have had mega investment in time, development and money to bring them to their present state of sophistication. It is totally unfair to compare the time and money invested in the few examples of the Polo engine without taking into account the hundreds of thousands of dollars and hundreds of people involved in bringing the modern "type 1" specialty engine to it's present state of art.

And I am still going to pick the Polo as the winner for durability.

With class!

Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:26 pm

I have loved this thread and hope to one day be the proud owner of a polo engine one day. BUT on thing that has not been addressed in this chat is the transmission / gearbox to handle the power of these engines, be they type IV or the polo.

I also wonder about what your opinions are about the 4 speed vs 5 speed transmissions as well? When porsche jumped up to the higher levels of horse power it also was more or less accompanied by another gear. BUT usually putting a gearbox with the extra gear requires cutting and welding which is not nice to do to any body. Of course we can change some of the ratios in the box, but then for highway driving or daily driving it is still more comfortable to use a 5th gear.

SO engines aside. could someone help with some advice on what transmission combo could accompany these power engines, both a 200hp Type 4 or one to fit with a polo. FOr me it would be a POLO + 5 speed in a 1956 porsche 356A.

Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:39 pm

dsrtfox wrote: How ever.....I don't think there very many guys that daily drive a 200hp Type 1, or any air cooled VW for that mater. Most are hobby cars that get driven 2 to 3 K a year. In 30 or 40 thousand miles with your big stroker Type ! your going to have to address valves and guides so how many years will that be? Would you put a Polo engine in your pride and joy and then daily drive it, I doubt it. Just sayin... I dont have a clue how much hp my 2028 has.but it's my only car, so it's my daily driver.and it don get driven eazy. and now with over 80000 miles it's still doing just fine. like I said before .if you cant rely on your motor... you need a new engine builder. and this motor is my spair, made form used stuff laying around the shop 8 or 9 years ago. the case was new and the p&c were nos berg slip in's full of rat pis&pits.gotta love these totalseal rings& torque plate honing. the rod bearings&cam bearings were also new.the rest was used...well used. and it was a 2 day build....as in the main bearings were driving around in my 2332 in another case, on another crank 2 days before. as was the cam&gears&lifters too.
as for how many people drive their shit i dont know I dont drive their shit only mine. I do know a lot of people that do not trust thier cars....I got news for them it's not the cars fault!!! you just cant fix stupid.

Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:57 pm

In my opinion it's not so much how many gears you have, it's how usable are they. That has everything to do with how well gear ratios and final drive ratios match the power curve of the engine.

Back years ago I turboed my Rabbit and suddenly found first gear was useless and I was out of gears already on the on ramp before I even got to the highway. The solution I chose was to pick up a 5 speed with it's higher ratio 5th gear but first was still a waste of time. So effectively I still only had a 4 speed. Had the parts been available at the time a final drive ratio change would have done just as much good.

If the car is light enough and/or the engine powerful enough you can't humanly shift fast enough to take full advantage of mega multi speed transmissions anyway. That is why the old 2 speed slush box used to be so popular in the big block drag rails.

Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:02 am

Lars,
The use of any Porsche 5 speed would require converting your T1 to IRS. That ain't easy and it's a one way trip with no way back. It would also destroy the value of your car but maybe you don't care...