TheSamba.com :: View topic

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:53 am

I couldnt get my rings to seat. Did many wide open pulls in heavy bus. I think I put too much oil when installing. Did a leakdown, rings leaking. My question is, should I rehone the cylinders? I was thinking 600-800 with hand and calling it a day. Maybe put some ring seat powder and of course new rings.

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:14 am

Read up on Mark Tucker's technique, best explanation of how to get something that seats fast, for me. And the right oil.

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:31 am

Run it hard for another few hundred miles before you pull it apart. I prep all mine the same using the same parts, and for some reason the last engine took about 200 miles then finally seated. Most are seated after the first few blasts up and down a close steep grade.

Along with a leak-down, I keep an eye on the oil consumption and how much oil is coming out the breather. Everyone has their own procedure, but I clean the cylinders in a big ultrasonic tank with super hot simple green, brush them with a big nylon brush in the drill, and then dry them quick with air and spray them with a real light coat of wd40 and wipe with a clean blue towel. Then I always use Total Seal Quick seat powder applied dry, no oil. I also use a Ultra-finish brush in the drill with oil for about 8-10 strokes before the initial cleaning.

Brian

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:09 am

Way too much on one cylinder. I had 1%,3%,1% and 18%. Want to drop compression a bit too while in there. Was in my bug, now in bus. Has a few hundred miles on it. Had some issues at first and I think I idled it too much.

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:19 am

The idling at first sure doesn't help. I always do the cam break-in, get the carbs and timing close, install in the car, and hit the road. After 4-5 blasts up the hill I come home and fine tune the mix, sync, and timing. Then go for more hard runs up the hill after it cools for a while.

These are the brushes I use before the final clean.
https://www.goodson.com/Ultrafinish-Plateau-Soft-Hones-23-sizes/
Along with the Total Seal powder. The powder is spendy, but I am still on my original tub after 28 engines. Per engine its pretty cheap.

Hone them quick, clean good, and get a new set of Grant rings.

Brian

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:58 am

If the engine has no thermostat it will make seating the rings much more difficult.

Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:46 pm

rings should be seated in the first day.if not somethen is rong, you may have another issue. also rings should be installed dry. many cylinders are honed real rough and never cleaned and just eat up the rings and fill the oil with swarf and iron as well as the piston skirts getting the swarf&iron imbeded into them to farther eating up the parts.

Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:35 pm

How did you clean the cylinders in the first place before the install. You might also have been the victim of price wars. I don't know if the sellers still do this, but I know they used to. To get the price lower, one shop would spec cheaper rings then the next. That way the consumer thought he was getting a good deal, instead they got hosed.

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:38 pm

were working on vws, were always getten hosed. :shock: :wink:

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:41 pm

jason wrote: I was thinking 600-800 with hand and calling it a day. Maybe put some ring seat powder and of course new rings.
Who knows. Probably not.
Follow the instructions for the rings you will use. If there are no instructions, I'll find some, or guess.

Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:30 am

john@aircooled.net wrote: If the engine has no thermostat it will make seating the rings much more difficult.
+1

Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:38 am

Ring seating powder?

What is that, some form of abrasive no doubt. Many years ago some shade tree mechanics would use "Comet" pot washing compound out of the wife's kitchen for this purpose but what does it do to the rest of the engine?

No thanks!

Also I have never heard of putting rings and pistons together dry! I have always assembled mine with a light coat of engine oil.

Again, no thanks!

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:31 am

When I assembled my 1776 the first thing I did was I cleaned the cylinders with brake parts cleaner to get the anti rust goo out of them. Then I check the ring gap, which was in specs, Then wiped them down with WD40 until the there was no grey stain on the blue shop towels I was using and finally I put a very thin film of transmission fluid on them. This is the first time I used this method and it worked for me.
I also used Brad Penn break in oil for the com break in period and the first 400 plus miles on the engine. So far there has been no oil consumption and very little blow by that I would consider normal blow by.

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:58 am

Comet is used in the sink when cleaning the parts prior to final assembly. Bubba's poured it into the carburetor while revving the engine. You can't fix stupid.

Ring seating powder fills in the valleys of the hone job, making it smooth. so the rings seal and pressure builds well behind the rings, pressing the rings into the cylinder (which then seat properly).

oprn wrote: Ring seating powder?

What is that, some form of abrasive no doubt. Many years ago some shade tree mechanics would use "Comet" pot washing compound out of the wife's kitchen for this purpose but what does it do to the rest of the engine?

No thanks!

Also I have never heard of putting rings and pistons together dry! I have always assembled mine with a light coat of engine oil.

Again, no thanks!

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:39 am

there is a "graphite" type of powder out called quick seat that you burnish into the cylinders.keeps stuff from getten eaten up....sometimes.

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:22 pm

total seal's powder lube is "probably" finely powdered moly disulfide or similar. A "dry" EP lubricant that prevents scuffing.
The rings need to touch the cylinder and burnish each other, so lubricant is there to prevent scuffing mainly.
You do NOT want to use lubricant that has high viscosity or high film strength, because you are NOT trying to make the rings ride on a film of oil, only wetting the valleys of the hone marks, where it's function is to prevent scuffing, prevent welding as the rings burnish.
With this view, the instructions should make more sense. Most rings use a 180-280 grit base finish, because that's the size of valley that works well with OIL.

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:59 pm

[quote="john@aircooled.net"]Comet is used in the sink when cleaning the parts prior to final assembly. Bubba's poured it into the carburetor while revving the engine. You can't fix stupid.

Ring seating powder fills in the valleys of the hone job, making it smooth. so the rings seal and pressure builds well behind the rings, pressing the rings into the cylinder (which then seat properly).

oprn wrote: Ring seating powder?

What is that, some form of abrasive no doubt. Many years ago some shade tree mechanics would use "Comet" pot washing compound out of the wife's kitchen for this purpose but what does it do to the rest of the engine?

No thanks!

The comet trick or Ajax dates back to radial engines used in aircraft in the 1940s. I can see why it would shock many of the unlicensed mechanics that post here. I'm not advocating trying this with your engine as the radial is an entirely different animal. Some aircraft tricks work on automobiles but this isn't one. Just like the silk thread used as a seal on lycomings and continentals but does not translate to VW.

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:57 pm

The Comet thing is probably a misunderstanding. It used to be fairly common to use Bon Ami. Different stuff used for cleaning sinks. Might be Bar Keeper's Friend too, not sure. Anyway, Comet had a definite abrasive in the mix. Bon Ami was powdered egg shells and didn't do the damage. there was a fairly long discussion somewhere here on theSamba. Some said it was included in the rebuild instructions on some vintage of diesel engine.

Sounds really creepy and stupid, but I've used it to get rings to seal on a race engine that didn't have time to seat them properly. Like "finished the build, and trailered the car to the race" kind of not enough time. And yes, a teaspoon right in the carb of a running engine!

Curse me if you must, but I still got paid to win races.

bo

Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:05 am

boroko wrote: The Comet thing is probably a misunderstanding. It used to be fairly common to use Bon Ami. Different stuff used for cleaning sinks. Might be Bar Keeper's Friend too, not sure. Anyway, Comet had a definite abrasive in the mix. Bon Ami was powdered egg shells and didn't do the damage. there was a fairly long discussion somewhere here on theSamba. Some said it was included in the rebuild instructions on some vintage of diesel engine.

Sounds really creepy and stupid, but I've used it to get rings to seal on a race engine that didn't have time to seat them properly. Like "finished the build, and trailered the car to the race" kind of not enough time. And yes, a teaspoon right in the carb of a running engine!

Curse me if you must, but I still got paid to win races.

bo
That is what I had pictured that this ring seating powder was intended for. Something you would build for the weekend and tear down on Monday to rebuild again for the next weekend. Perhaps not, but for me - I think giving the rings a bit of time to seat on their own is not that bad.

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:01 am

Comet is a CLEANER, used to CLEAN the cylinders prior to final assembly and oiling.

If you still have some on the parts after using it, you were rushing and didn't rinse it properly.

Comet and hot water clean the parts far better than anything else in my experience.

Does your cereal taste like soap? If so, slow the eff down.