TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:13 pm

Glenn wrote: bsairhead wrote: My VJ4BR8 has no oiling boss or knob. It appears to be rebuilt January 62 and no directional arrow. Can I assume the rebuilder used a 383 body and used VJ4BR8 guts and replaced the badge?
First off the directional arrow was added in 1964 when Bosch went with a 10 digit part number. The older models did not have the arrow.

The 383 body is shorter than the VJ4BR8 so the internals would not fit in. Just going off Frederik information that rebuilders used the same house. I am not saying I have something rare just unusual based on my research.

Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:17 pm

I've restored over (300) VJ4BR8 and have seen early ones without the "knob".

Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:20 pm

I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.

re: the oiler boss
Correct, the change happened around 1956 or perhaps earlier. Progressive Refinements does not call out the change. If anyone has documentation on when the change occurred it would be Frederick. The BR 2 and 3 were used in December 1953 to August 1954. The very first BR 8's starting August 1954, did not have the oiling boss yet. Unusual or somewhat rare would be an accurate assessment of an early BR 8. If your distributor has a date stamp it might indicate it was a BR 3 which is rare or a BR 2 which would be uber rare( less than 2 month production run now 69 years into the past). Sorry, the rarity does not translate into more valuable, except maybe to a distributor geek or someone looking for a date that matches their engine Which I do try to accommodate.

Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:32 pm

Glenn wrote: I've restored over (300) VJ4BR8 and have seen early ones without the "knob".

Mine looks like the second picture as it has the wire cap clips

Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:35 pm

tasb wrote: I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.

re: the oiler boss
Correct, the change happened around 1956 or perhaps earlier. Progressive Refinements does not call out the change. If anyone has documentation on when the change occurred it would be Frederick. The BR 2 and 3 were used in December 1953 to August 1954. The very first BR 8's starting August 1954, did not have the oiling boss yet. Unusual or somewhat rare would be an accurate assessment of an early BR 8. If your distributor has a date stamp it might indicate it was a BR 3 which is rare or a BR 2 which would be uber rare( less than 2 month production run now 69 years into the past). Sorry, the rarity does not translate into more valuable, except maybe to a distributor geek or someone looking for a date that matches their engine. Where do I look for a date?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:41 pm

bsairhead wrote: Where do I look for a date?
Could be anywhere. Many don't have a visible code.

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:51 pm

Since this seems to be a good thread details of Bosch distributors... When did Bosch attach those nice oval tags with solid rivets and when did they use hollow ones?

My "019" is actually a VJ4BR8 with a faded tag and raised lettering, much like the one posted recently by Glenn as an example without the boss on the side, but my tag is a little more readable. It still has its small non-resistor rotor inside too, but a black cap. It has the screw head eccentric to adjust the points too.

Mine has hollow rivets holding the tag on and I've seen a few more in this thread with hollow rivets too. Does that speak to when or where it was built? I haven't found a date code yet.

Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:10 pm

The different badge rivets have been discussed in the past. I believe the consensus was that the hollow rivets started showing up in the late 1950's. Before that the badges were attached by a pair of nails. From the late 50's through the mid 60's either can be found. It was likely just a supply as demanded small item for Bosch.

4G= April 1951

The date stamp is typically near the condenser mount though Glenn is correct it could be anywhere if it was stamped on a Friday and the supervisor was away at a meeting. I would guess 6 out of ten have a readable date stamp, two are unreadable or incomplete and two have no stamp visible.

The wire vs spring cap clips have also been discussed at some length in the past. They are not a reliable method of dating a distributor IMHO since it takes all of three minutes and a screwdriver to swap them around. This is often done as the wire clips, perhaps due to their relative rarity, posses a certain "cool" factor.

The fine adjustment eccentric screw is found on the original BR 8 and 25 but is deleted from the later reproduced 010 and 019's. The points plates can be interchanged.

Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:37 pm

Glenn wrote:
The 383 body is shorter than the VJ4BR8 so the internals would not fit in.

At least going by the 1960 spare parts list 383 and VJ4 BR8 (BR2 and BR3) has the same body/ house spare part number. This is also probably why late (Porsche) 383 distributors had the boss as they got the new VJ.. castings.

Comparing them side by side they look to me to be the same hight/lenght? But I have never tried to put one insternals into the other. But I think you maybe ment 383 is shorter than VJU4BR8?

Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:51 am

I havn't found a exact date of the change of the rivet in documentation, but I can tell that in 1956 it was still the solid rivet part number NST 1071/3 and in 1959 it was the "pipe rivet" part number WNJ 41 Z 23 X 843

As to the wire clips (look at the documentation I listed earlier) they switched back to the spring clips 1955-56, but still 1959 Bosch told in the spare parts lists to "use up" the wire clips in stock. So there would have been lots of them left in stock even later on and GL and others would probably have had them and used them on rebuilds and replacements.

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:19 pm

Far left: the first of the VJU 4 BR 8 dated July 1954. It's in my personal collection. When I was restoring it I found what turned out to be a red dot on the housing that got cleared off before I read that it was a factory applied mark denoting improved springs according to Progressive Refinements.

Middle and right no oil boss dated 9k for September 1954, oil boss version dated 4L or April 1955. So the oiler boss revision happened sometime between those two dates, at least for VW.

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 pm

Frederik wrote: I havn't found a exact date of the change of the rivet in documentation, but I can tell that in 1956 it was still the solid rivet part number NST 1071/3 and in 1959 it was the "pipe rivet" part number WNJ 41 Z 23 X 843

As to the wire clips (look at the documentation I listed earlier) they switched back to the spring clips 1955-56, but still 1959 Bosch told in the spare parts lists to "use up" the wire clips in stock. So there would have been lots of them left in stock even later on and GL and others would probably have had them and used them on rebuilds and replacements.

Frederik never ceases to amaze with his documentation, thank you sir. The little debate over the cap clips was always a matter of some opinion (including mine) with little real documentation. I don't recall ever seeing the wire cap clips on really early distributors.

I don't recall seeing wire cap clips on GL rebuilds but, they were likely to have been the first to use a version of them on VW. Here is an early GL mechanical advance March 1955:

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:59 pm

The quick and easy way to identify an early Bosch distributor from a later version is by a quick glance at the ozone vent. The early ones have a screen, the later a different design.

The design change happened some time after September 1956.

The yellow paint is actually factory applied denoting further refinement to the design.

Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:06 pm

Some serious "geeking" going on here ;)

Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:57 pm

Frederik wrote: I havn't found a exact date of the change of the rivet in documentation, but I can tell that in 1956 it was still the solid rivet part number NST 1071/3 and in 1959 it was the "pipe rivet" part number WNJ 41 Z 23 X 843
I found the date code on my VJ4BR8. It is stamped in the body above the oiler boss. The stamping is turned 90 degrees from most shown here, I had to read it from the top down instead of around the body. It's stamped 3P. I believe that makes it March 1958. My distributor has the pipe rivets and later vent on the bottom.

Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:58 pm

Frederik wrote: Glenn wrote:
The 383 body is shorter than the VJ4BR8 so the internals would not fit in.

At least going by the 1960 spare parts list 383 and VJ4 BR8 (BR2 and BR3) has the same body/ house spare part number. This is also probably why late (Porsche) 383 distributors had the boss as they got the new VJ.. castings.

Comparing them side by side they look to me to be the same hight/lenght? But I have never tried to put one insternals into the other. But I think you maybe ment 383 is shorter than VJU4BR8?

The housing length is the same. The housing diameter is also the same so that an early flat distributor cap will fit on a later cast iron housing without internals. The difference is that the early shafts are wider and shorter in diameter making them not interchangeable with the later housings.

# After doing some more checking I need to correct the above. The diameter of the distributor shafts is the same. A VJ(U) distributor shaft WILL fit into a 383 housing. The difference remains that the points cam diameter is wider and shorter so that you cannot install VJU shafts into a 383 housing and expect to use any of the common Bosch caps. You can see in the above pic that the V J shaft rises higher than the 383 which is barely visible. The points cams are NOT interchangeable.

Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:22 pm

EVfun wrote: Frederik wrote: I havn't found a exact date of the change of the rivet in documentation, but I can tell that in 1956 it was still the solid rivet part number NST 1071/3 and in 1959 it was the "pipe rivet" part number WNJ 41 Z 23 X 843
I found the date code on my VJ4BR8. It is stamped in the body above the oiler boss. The stamping is turned 90 degrees from most shown here, I had to read it from the top down instead of around the body. It's stamped 3P. I believe that makes it March 1958. My distributor has the pipe rivets and later vent on the bottom.

That all fits, yes. There was likely a machine, maybe foot operated that stamped the date on the housing. The date code can be found at any reading angle. I even found one today that was double stamped one stamping being partly off the housing edge. Might be a former employee out there with a "10Q" permanently embedded in a finger.

Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:54 pm

Another difference in the early 383 is the jagged plate attached to the shaft. I've seen these on early BR8 as well. Maybe 1 out of 100. You can see a picture of it in Frederik's posted diagram.

Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:58 pm

Early 383 had no o-ring groove.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:04 am

tasb wrote:
Frederik never ceases to amaze with his documentation, thank you sir. The little debate over the cap clips was always a matter of some opinion (including mine) with little real documentation. I don't recall ever seeing the wire cap clips on really early distributors.

In 1947 there were no wire clips used on distributors. Spring clips part number ZBF 75/1 and ZBF 75/2 was used.

In the 1954 parts list for VE4 the ZBF 75/1 and /2 spring clips is still listed (also the ones shown in diagram) but also the wire clips is listed as "New version of cap clips". Part number for them ZBF 75 Z 4 (2 of the same used). Same year for VJU4 the new wire clips are the only one listed and shown.

The 1955 added parts list for VJU4BR9 only the wire clips is shown and listed.

In the 1956 parts list they switched back to the spring clip design again, but a new version. Part number ZBVF 6 Z 1 (2 of the same used). As a comment "replaces the wire spring clip ZBF 75 Z 4 also need to change fasteners".

The 1959 spare parts list (specific for vw VJ4 distributors) still list the wire clips with comment to use up parts still in stock.

Going by documentation others have provided the first wire clips might have turned up around 1952 even if they still is refered to as "new style" in 1954. My guess is that they were more ecconomic to produce, as Bosch tried them around early-mid 1950, probably didn't like them and went back to a spring clip design. They would probably have had the old spring clips left and used also during this time (just as they had wire clips left when they switched again). During some time around 1954 they probably only used the wire clips on new distributors.