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Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:38 am

Why do YOU own vehicles that don't serve your purpose? :roll: Your problems are not the same as everyone else. For 90% of commuters, electric will be the way forward.

BUT. I think long range vehicles (trucks and airplanes) will need some kind of power generation. My thinking is a hybrid ... electric propulsion with short-range battery capacity and a gas turbine generator to make power for longer distances. That would give you more efficent fuel burn; ability to burn a wide variety of fuels; less maintenance; and much quieter, more efficient operation in urban areas.

Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:03 pm

Q-Dog wrote: For 90% of commuters, electric will be the way forward.

Yes, indeed...mass transit.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:41 am

Stripped66 wrote: Q-Dog wrote: For 90% of commuters, electric will be the way forward.

Yes, indeed...mass transit.
^^^This!^^^

14 million people in the same city traveling one at a time in individual cars is absolutely ludicrous! Busses, subways and light rail transit is what all these people should be using!

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:35 am

You have to plan mass transit by building your city to accommodate it , not trying to stick it in after the fact.

Atlanta is an example of how not to do this

Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:04 am

oprn wrote: Stripped66 wrote: Q-Dog wrote: For 90% of commuters, electric will be the way forward.

Yes, indeed...mass transit.
^^^This!^^^

14 million people in the same city traveling one at a time in individual cars is absolutely ludicrous! Busses, subways and light rail transit is what all these people should be using!

That is a really nice dream but it isn't going to work here in the States.

We are not a "herd" type people.
We value our car and the choices it gives us, even though we are stuck in traffic for an hour making a 15 minute drive.

The States are also a "class" system.
In major Cities like N.Y.C. Where owning a car is difficult and expensive, mass transit us used by the masses.
But you move out 15-20 miles?
It becomes a World of the "haves" and the "have nots".

Sure...... many of the "haves" will drive to a Surburban train station and mass transit into NYC but any other transport is via private car.
The Surburban "have nots" walk, bike, take the low ridership subsidized local mass transit, taxi's or depend on friends.

The mass transit concept outside of the downtown cities fails here in the States.

Those who do take mass transit today aren't potential car customers today or tomorrow. They don't factor in to the puzzle...... except ti ride in an electric bus or taxi.

Dave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:51 am

Personally, I have no need for mass transit as I'm retired and live out in the sticks where there is no mass transit. I'm content with consuming massive quantities.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:47 am

djkeev wrote: That is a really nice dream but it isn't going to work here in the States.

We are a "herd" type people.
We value our car and the choices it gives us, even though we are stuff in traffic for an hour making a 15 minute drive. Dave
Well, well, well! It seems the old guys bucking EVs are not the only ones that need a major shift in attitude to reduce this addiction to excessive fuel consumption.

Surprise, surprise! :roll:

Along with this big push for EVs maybe your governments should be taking some serious steps to promote better mass transit systems. Or do they see is as purely up to the individual to reduce fossil fuel use? A downloading of responsibility on the masses?

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:53 am

Thats just funny!
I'm not bucking EV's ...... I see the value....... I see the short comings....... I also own a hybrid. I'm just sippin' fuel in my car.........

Full electric?
Very limited use for me. But there is value there for many.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:36 am

Abscate wrote: You have to plan mass transit by building your city to accommodate it , not trying to stick it in after the fact.

Atlanta is an example of how not to do this
Most major cities have existed long before this present fixation on the convenience of the personal car. Only in the last 40 years or so has this been the case where city developers have designed around this concept of the masses commuting to thier jobs and shopping. That is a pretty small piece of time in the grand scheme of things.

The time is ripe for a change. Bring the jobs and shopping opportunities back into the communities and in the cases of large factories where that is not practical, provide the mass transportation that is needed.

This "EVs are going to save the world" is such a narrow minded approach! It should be but a small portion of many many changes. This pandemic has opened our eyes to see the possibility of using the present technology to work from home for office workers. That is one very positive step!

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:40 am

Q-Dog wrote: The very first cars were loud and slow, expensive, and frightened horses and people. Plus, there were no gas stations. It took a while to make them quiet, dependable and affordable for most people, and to build the infrastructure to support them.

The same thing is happening with electric cars as we speak. We have to start somewhere. It seems some people think all of the issues need to be solved before we can sell electric cars. I have some news for you. Internal combustion cars still don't have all of their problems solved ... and likely never will. We have learned to mold our lives around the limitations of the technology we have while we continue to improve it.

One would think people who frequent a forum dedicated to a relic of a car that was most famous for the fact it changed incrementally to become more efficient, more safe, more comfortable ... would understand this fact.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

I completely agree. Maybe an oversimplified comparison would be when televisions evolved? Retailers were selling colour TVs, but who wanted to buy one? There were very few shows even being filmed in colour. The studios didn't see a point in spending the money to film in colour, since so few people owned colour TVs. I'm sure it was a bit of a standoff, but eventually the market sorted itself out. The same issue happened in the past decade or 2 with HD televisions. But that sorted itself out too.

I have nothing against electric cars. I'm sure they work great for some people. And I'm sure they don't work at all for others. The biggest thing standing in my way of owning a $50,000 - $100,000 EV is the same thing stopping me from owning a $50,000 - $100,000 ICE car. I won't spend that kind of money on either type of car. I usually own cars in the $10,000 range, and can usually find parts at local wreckers for a reasonable price to keep them going. When the used EV market gets into that price range, and parts supply becomes common (and affordable), I might look into it. But I think we're a while from being at that point.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:59 am

CanStan wrote: I have nothing against electric cars. I'm sure they work great for some people. And I'm sure they don't work at all for others. The biggest thing standing in my way of owning a $50,000 - $100,000 EV is the same thing stopping me from owning a $50,000 - $100,000 ICE car. I won't spend that kind of money on either type of car. I usually own cars in the $10,000 range, and can usually find parts at local wreckers for a reasonable price to keep them going. When the used EV market gets into that price range, and parts supply becomes common (and affordable), I might look into it. But I think we're a while from being at that point.
Truth!

That is a big part of EVs becoming practical! Tesla's mind set will not at present allow this to happen. They want complete control over the car you paid for, for it's entire life cycle it seems. Exclusivity is not a good long term strategy. Ask Blackberry!

Lets hope other companies step up with E cars that fit this vision. It's early in the game so here is for hoping!

Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:52 am

It used to be you hired into company and spent your career there. So planning your home and commute was relatively stable. Public transit could be counted on once you figure it out.

Today the average tenancy at a company is just five years. The ability to "reconfigure" your means of commuting by simply driving somewhere else is the only practical solution.

This varies around the country, as posted, but in an urban/suburban area like southern California, public transit could never work. There are many reasons, none of which are solvable. The "last mile" at either end just isn't practical for most folks. Families where a parent drops off kids on the way to work just isn't compatible with mass transit. Running errands means you are getting into a car anyway, and spending more time doing it.

I tried it for a while, but it turned a 30 minute drive into a 90-minute hassle. In our hurried society, time is important.

Telecommuting will make a huge difference for many, not just in the commute, but in where you live for a given job, maybe in a different state.

So what about EVs? They will help for commuters, and although the power plant causes pollution, it is far cheaper to control at a power plant than on a million individual cars that get poor maintenance. On the net it's a gain. But they are not jack-of-all-trade cars like a gas-engined vehicle. Long trips, cold weather, and other needs just don't fit well with EVs, at least not yet.

Interestingly, one of the best such solutions, the Volt, is no longer made! But it could work as pure EV for most folks, but also drive cross country.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:15 am

I thought the new idea for urban/suburban areas was to have autonomous ev pod cars that you summoned with an app. so no mixing with the masses, transport when you want it that goes where you want and no need to cater for hundreds of parked cars.
of course when the pod car arrives at your door chances are it will be covered in the dna of the previous users that day.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:30 am

finster wrote: I thought the new idea for urban/suburban areas was to have autonomous ev pod cars that you summoned with an app. so no mixing with the masses, transport when you want it that goes where you want and no need to cater for hundreds of parked cars.
of course when the pod car arrives at your door chances are it will be covered in the dna of the previous users that day.

Who wants to climb into some disgusting vehicle that the previous user spilled a coke on the seat or did god only knows what in there.

I struggle with simple thinks like public bathroom sink knobs or store door pull handles........ To climb into a car with no between user checks or cleaning?

No thanks, a really really BIG no thanks! .

Dave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:54 am

oprn wrote: Only in the last 40 years or so has this been the case where city developers have designed around this concept of the masses commuting to thier jobs and shopping.

Maybe on *your* side of the Atlantic. :roll:

Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:05 am

The last 2 or 3 issues of Hagerty Drivers Club have much written about electric cars and autonomous vehicles, relating to today, and predictions for the future. If you have access to these magazines, give them a read.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:44 am

Who.Me? wrote: oprn wrote: Only in the last 40 years or so has this been the case where city developers have designed around this concept of the masses commuting to thier jobs and shopping.

Maybe on *your* side of the Atlantic. :roll:

I think that you may be mistaken.
Most major US cities have existed far longer than the Automobile has been around.
Maybe some of the West Coast cities grew with motorized transportation. But here in the East?
There were wagons and horse drawn street cars for a long time….. early mass transit.
Electric street trolleys gave way to buses, cities spent millions for subway systems.
All to move people who lacked transportation.
Trains ran to vacation areas…..
it is only since the car became common that we moved away from mass transit.

Our cities were NOT designed for motor vehicles, we have simply squeezed them into a largely pedestrian city.

Dave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:58 am

djkeev wrote: Who.Me? wrote: oprn wrote: Only in the last 40 years or so has this been the case where city developers have designed around this concept of the masses commuting to thier jobs and shopping.

Maybe on *your* side of the Atlantic. :roll:

I think that you may be mistaken.
Most major US cities have existed far longer than the Automobile has been around.
Maybe some of the West Coast cities grew with motorized transportation. But here in the East?
There were wagons and horse drawn street cars for a long time….. early mass transit.
Electric street trolleys gave way to buses, cities spent millions for subway systems.
All to move people who lacked transportation.
Trains ran to vacation areas…..
it is only since the car became common that we moved away from mass transit.

Our cities were NOT designed for motor vehicles, we have simply squeezed them into a largely pedestrian city.

Dave

Most west coast cities have been automobile-centric. Some started earlier, but in the main, the large urban/suburban population explosions have occurred with the automobile in mind.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:22 pm

Keep in mind that Tesla is only a name that the company purchased. They are in no way connected with the great inventor mentored by Edison. I doubt very much that Tesla or Edison would have wanted any of their products made where quality is put on the back burner if it exists at all.

Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:54 pm

Doesn't USA have the worst passenger train station of all the "developed" countries?