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Thu May 11, 2023 6:48 pm

esde wrote: The thing to know with the Fowler bore gauge, is that the spring is strong enough to scratch your bearings if you aren't careful. Take the stalk apart, and you will find it has two springs inside. I removed one, and the unit runs much softer now, though is still accurate.
I have a full set of Mitutoyo metric combimikes, that I won on eBay. They've been a pleasure to use.
https://www.grainger.com/product/6NPZ8?gucid=N:N:P...lsrc=aw.ds

Appreciate this tip about removing the spring, thank you. :D Will do.

Thu May 11, 2023 8:00 pm

What I mean is, for instance the smiec dial calipers, I have purchased a dozen of them.
The best one lasted 19 years and the worst one lasted a week. The accuracy also varies from one to another.
MOST of them last 2-6 years or until dropped a certain way.

While they all SHOULD be identical, it follows a bell curve, this is just how the universe is, it's no different than anything else.

Ebay isn't going to do anything about that, it's just statistics and economics.
How long will it take..... for a particle of dust of a particular size and shape, to find it's way into a particular spot on a gear or shaft to cause a problem to occur? Exactly how many hours does a light bulb last? Can't predict it.

But with USEd tools, the ones that lasted a week are already broke, so if it is already broke and the said it wasn't broke, then you might get a refund on ebay, but only if the seller does specifically say that it isn't broke. the smart sellers just say... "as pictured", or, in original packaging, or whatever.
If they don't lie, then they did their job IMO.

Thu May 11, 2023 8:56 pm

modok wrote: What I mean is, for instance the smiec dial calipers, I have purchased a dozen of them.
The best one lasted 19 years and the worst one lasted a week. The accuracy also varies from one to another.
MOST of them last 2-6 years or until dropped a certain way.

While they all SHOULD be identical, it follows a bell curve, this is just how the universe is, it's no different than anything else.

Ebay isn't going to do anything about that, it's just statistics and economics.
How long will it take..... for a particle of dust of a particular size and shape, to find it's way into a particular spot on a gear or shaft to cause a problem to occur? Exactly how many hours does a light bulb last? Can't predict it.

But with USEd tools, the ones that lasted a week are already broke, so if it is already broke and the said it wasn't broke, then you might get a refund on ebay, but only if the seller does specifically say that it isn't broke. the smart sellers just say... "as pictured", or, in original packaging, or whatever.
If they don't lie, then they did their job IMO.

Just misunderstood, thought meant point of arrival.

Yes, buying used don't know how long it will last. However, sometimes there really is no option, for example, an industrial sewing machine. A new made in China starts out at about $2.000USD, a used Singer $300.

Good to know dust is a killer, live in a desert, worse, next to an open pit mine, so soon as arrives, put the whole case in a Ziplock bag.

Fri May 12, 2023 12:23 am

I’d say the current standard in the digital world of hand measurement tools is Mitutoyo. A lot of digital Starrett tools are not made in the USA. Where as all of Mitutoyo’s tools are made in Japan.

The old Starrett tools are very good quality. Just like old Matco or Snap-on tools.
But a lot of Starrett’s new digital stuff is not great. I owned a 0-1 digital coolant-proof mic from Starrett and it quit working within a year. My Mitutoyo mics are constantly covered with oil and never skip a beat.

I’m a machinist for Keysight Technologies and no one else is using Starrett mics or calipers. Everyone uses either Mitutoyo or Fowler.

I personally prefer Mitutoyo over Fowler. Some of Fowlers tools just aren’t as comfortable to use. Plus I prefer the flat style depth rod of Mitutoyo calipers over the round rod style that Fowler commonly uses. But that’s a personal preference.

If you can afford it the carbide tipped mics are great.
Mitutoyo has a version of mic called quantum mic. Which extends and retracts super fast with fewer turns. Handy if you’re constantly measuring various diameters.

Almost all of Starrett hand tools are still made in the USA. Like tap wrenches, squares, levels, scales, etc and are generally still good quality.

As far as indicators go. There are many great brands. My personal preference is InterRapid as the dials are generally smaller and can get into tighter spaces than my Mitutoyo can.

Fri May 12, 2023 6:25 am

I was forced against my will by The Man to do a accuracy and repeatability study on digital calipers for a low volume assembly line, and also to use that knowledge to stock our machine shop tool stash. Mitutoyo came out on top very convincingly. The are also more resistant to changing measurements when more or less pressure is applied to the digital caliper slide by your finger. Meaning when they are handed to a random person to use, and then to a different random person who uses them differently, Mitutoyos were more likely to give the same or closer results from multiple users. Fowlers weren't bad, and the "unbranded" or "central tools" Harbor Freight ones were unsurprisingly the worst. They can be made better by tightening the slide strips up and stoning the rails, and lubricating them more, but screw that.

Speaking of results, as a result of that study I now own two sets of Mitutoyos at home, 1 set at work, and all the shared shop calipers are now Mitutoyo as well. Since I started my machine shop business, I've really come to appreciate good stuff priced fairly.

Fri May 12, 2023 7:44 am

The name brand tool discussion is inspiring, but any tool can be checked for accuracy. Its not hard.

I would say its a bigger problem that people are scared to buy a new tool cause a Mitutoyo digital mic cost $450. So they are fumbling around with plasti-gauge trying to get a reading on a rod bearing that is smearing the plastigauge all over while trying to tightening the rod nuts.

Anyone can get a large display digital caliper for under $20 and check it for accuracy before using it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122870819066?mkcid=16&...media=COPY

Even large display digital mics can be had for under $75

https://www.ebay.com/itm/371121081135?mkcid=16&...media=COPY

I have 1500 just in Mitutoyo digital micrometers, but at $75 a shot for a unbranded model that measures 100% accurate thats what is getting used. After putting so much wear on the unbranded stuff and its all still working perfectly, the Mitutoyo will likely go on ebay. ( I know, its blasphemey if your a tool brand whore.)

The $20 large screen digital caliper gets more use then anything. Non vw too. Everyone should have one.

Fri May 12, 2023 8:12 am

Schepp wrote: I’d say the current standard in the digital world of hand measurement tools is Mitutoyo. A lot of digital Starrett tools are not made in the USA. Where as all of Mitutoyo’s tools are made in Japan.

Firstly, really appreciate providing so much information, thank you. :D

As for digital, had not crossed my mind, maybe because a preference for analogue (ex. can't stand the sound of CDs, cassettes and especially vinyl is superior). Are Mitutoyo digital as reliable as analogue?

What is the lifetime of a Mitutoyo digital? Looks to be some pre 1990s, judging by the design of the case and brown housings.

Schepp wrote: The old Starrett tools are very good quality. Just like old Matco or Snap-on tools.

Whoa, are you saying the new Matco and Snap On is no longer quality? If so, when did it start happening?

My tool preferences been Hazet, SK, and Wright. I left Craftsman after became a Kmart tool, now as far as I know it is gone with Sears.

Schepp wrote: But a lot of Starrett’s new digital stuff is not great. I owned a 0-1 digital coolant-proof mic from Starrett and it quit working within a year. My Mitutoyo mics are constantly covered with oil and never skip a beat.

:shock:

Schepp wrote: I’m a machinist for Keysight Technologies and no one else is using Starrett mics or calipers. Everyone uses either Mitutoyo or Fowler.

Interesting.

Schepp wrote: I personally prefer Mitutoyo over Fowler. Some of Fowlers tools just aren’t as comfortable to use. Plus I prefer the flat style depth rod of Mitutoyo calipers over the round rod style that Fowler commonly uses. But that’s a personal preference.

I have both, the round makes me concerned if my wrist twitches end up bending it (used to randomly twitch, now think about it hasn't since PT on my shoulder, hmmm).

Schepp wrote: If you can afford it the carbide tipped mics are great.
Mitutoyo has a version of mic called quantum mic. Which extends and retracts super fast with fewer turns. Handy if you’re constantly measuring various diameters.

I be buying the least expensive used, so probably not. My guess be would not make a lot of difference for the hobbyist.

Schepp wrote: Almost all of Starrett hand tools are still made in the USA. Like tap wrenches, squares, levels, scales, etc and are generally still good quality.

Didn't know made hand tools.

Speaking of dies and taps, what about Champion? Got one of their taps and seems good. Want to get a few in the common sizes, my Harbor Fright set was stolen, and found it more annoying then a help having a vast array of sizes.

Schepp wrote: As far as indicators go. There are many great brands. My personal preference is InterRapid as the dials are generally smaller and can get into tighter spaces than my Mitutoyo can.

What is an indicator, other than another name for a turn signal?

Fri May 12, 2023 8:19 am

jimmyhoffa wrote: I was forced against my will by The Man to do a accuracy and repeatability study on digital calipers for a low volume assembly line, and also to use that knowledge to stock our machine shop tool stash. Mitutoyo came out on top very convincingly. The are also more resistant to changing measurements when more or less pressure is applied to the digital caliper slide by your finger. Meaning when they are handed to a random person to use, and then to a different random person who uses them differently, Mitutoyos were more likely to give the same or closer results from multiple users. Fowlers weren't bad, and the "unbranded" or "central tools" Harbor Freight ones were unsurprisingly the worst. They can be made better by tightening the slide strips up and stoning the rails, and lubricating them more, but screw that.

Speaking of results, as a result of that study I now own two sets of Mitutoyos at home, 1 set at work, and all the shared shop calipers are now Mitutoyo as well. Since I started my machine shop business, I've really come to appreciate good stuff priced fairly.

Thank you for this valuable insight. :D

I was looking at an analogue Fowler bore gauge, my understanding is the minimum to get this blasted engine together. Then when have the financial opportunity, purchase more.

What has me on Mitutoyo is differing pressures don't make changes.

Is digital now better than analogue? What is the lifespan of a Mitutoyo digital?

Fri May 12, 2023 8:26 am

jpaull wrote: The name brand tool discussion is inspiring, but any tool can be checked for accuracy. Its not hard.

I would say its a bigger problem that people are scared to buy a new tool cause a Mitutoyo digital mic cost $450. So they are fumbling around with plasti-gauge trying to get a reading on a rod bearing that is smearing the plastigauge all over while trying to tightening the rod nuts.

Anyone can get a large display digital caliper for under $20 and check it for accuracy before using it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122870819066?mkcid=16&...media=COPY

Even large display digital mics can be had for under $75

https://www.ebay.com/itm/371121081135?mkcid=16&...media=COPY

I have 1500 just in Mitutoyo digital micrometers, but at $75 a shot for a unbranded model that measures 100% accurate thats what is getting used. After putting so much wear on the unbranded stuff and its all still working perfectly, the Mitutoyo will likely go on ebay. ( I know, its blasphemey if your a tool brand whore.)

The $20 large screen digital caliper gets more use then anything. Non vw too. Everyone should have one.

Yes, though can it be adjusted to 0,00mm accuracy?

As for eBay, have the listing fees, dealing with buyers, and will get no where near the original purchase price, know because was looking earlier this morning.

Out of curiosity, sent you a PM. I rather buy from a forum member then eBay, if possible.

Fri May 12, 2023 9:06 am

Mitutoyo micrometers and calipers probably are the best, and/or, the most popular right now, so that's what people want because it's what they trained on.

Personally I think starrett micrometers are easier to read, but a lot of it is just personal taste.

At home I have Phase II micrometers and I think they are more than adequate, and they cost me almost nothing, I mean literally I got most of them for pocket change except the 3-4 which I had to buy new for 40$ :lol:
But I then scratched it up and hit it with some paint overspray so it matches the others.

Fri May 12, 2023 10:01 am

@Adriel Rowley

I'm not saying the new tools aren't good by any means. I'm not a mechanic by trade, though a good friend of mine is a master motorcycle mechanic and he has said that he's seen a difference in quality over the past 10yrs.
We're talking top tier tools here, which are still vastly higher quality than many other brands.

My preferred hand tools are Wera.

My Mitutoyo 0-1 coolant proof Quantum mic is 5yrs old and is used daily. As far as accuracy is concerned. the typical tolerance for the parts we have to make here at Keysight are +/- .013 microns. I have complete full trust in my mics to be able to handle that.
You can still over tighten a ratcheting thimble on a mic, a lot of people do.

Calipers are the most inaccurate tool for precision work. I could measure the same part 7 times and get 3 different readings. You could give 10 people the same calipers and have them measure the same part and you'd get 10 different readings.
They are very difficult to get accurate repeatable readings.
Its too easy to use them incorrectly.
I'm not saying the tool itself is not accurate. Its very much the operators interpretation of what the measurement actually is. Its too easy to use too much pressure or to not be totally flat or straight etc.

Don't get me wrong, for metal fabrication, garage or hobbyist use without a doubt they'll work just fine.

Just because the cheap Chinese tools have a display the goes out 5 decimal places. Doesn't mean they're accurate to that power.
Every new tool should come with a calibration certificate stating its accuracy. Though the Chinese brands are likely making up those numbers.
I'd be curious just for shits if you had a brand new caliper from Harbor Freight sent out for calibration what the base test result would be?

At home I've got 2 digital HF calipers, one for metal fab and one for whatever else. When I have a task that requires precision work like engine building I'll bring home what I need from my work box.

Indicators are very useful for checking runout, concentricity, centering drills, or trueing up a vise on a mill etc.
Drop indicators or commonly known as a drop gages are superior for measuring depth, like deck height.

My favorite unique tool for manual mill work is a wiggler. Set the mill to a very low rpm and sweep the hole making adjustments to the x-y axis until the machine is perfectly centered to a particular hole.

A quality drop gage and or indicator paired with a good magnetic base is a must for doing any machine work.

I'm a turning guy not a mill guy. While I can do mill work proficiently, its not my strength.
I'm responsible for 3 different machines a Unisig gun-drill, a Hardinge chucker lathe primarily used for 2nd op work and a Nakamura WY100ii turning center.

I prefer to use digital tools where possible. They're unmistakable to read. Also the accuracy resolution is superior to a dial readout. Another plus is you can switch between metric and imperial with a push of a button. You can set your zero at any distance which you cant do with a dial-mic but still can with dial calipers.

The discussion of measuring tools is as vast as discussing engine building.
Everyone has their own preference. There are many ways to do the same thing. I'm providing my own experiences and preferences.

Every shop is different and has different requirements. A machinists tool box is very much specialized to the work at hand. Where as a mechanic has to be able to handle a lot more.

I'm very passionate about my trade. I take a lot of pride in the work I do. Passionate machinists are what help set respectable countries apart from those other ones.

Fri May 12, 2023 11:01 am

modok wrote: Mitutoyo micrometers and calipers probably are the best, and/or, the most popular right now, so that's what people want because it's what they trained on.

Personally I think starrett micrometers are easier to read, but a lot of it is just personal taste.

At home I have Phase II micrometers and I think they are more than adequate, and they cost me almost nothing, I mean literally I got most of them for pocket change except the 3-4 which I had to buy new for 40$ :lol:
But I then scratched it up and hit it with some paint overspray so it matches the others.

Trouble with Starrett is the cost, as seems implied. Are Phase II just as easy to read?

Fri May 12, 2023 11:10 am

I don't think it's important, so feel free to form your own opinion on that.
As long as the micrometer is not damaged or horribly worn out it should be able do the job fine.
I have more problems with everything else than I do with that

But if you don't have ways of checking it's calibration then you might be better if buying new, but even cheap ones these days should be pretty good. It's a simple device.

Fri May 12, 2023 11:26 am

Schepp wrote: @Adriel Rowley

I'm not saying the new tools aren't good by any means. I'm not a mechanic by trade, though a good friend of mine is a master motorcycle mechanic and he has said that he's seen a difference in quality over the past 10yrs.
We're talking top tier tools here, which are still vastly higher quality than many other brands.

My preferred hand tools are Wera.

My Mitutoyo 0-1 coolant proof Quantum mic is 5yrs old and is used daily. As far as accuracy is concerned. the typical tolerance for the parts we have to make here at Keysight are +/- .013 microns. I have complete full trust in my mics to be able to handle that.
You can still over tighten a ratcheting thimble on a mic, a lot of people do.

Calipers are the most inaccurate tool for precision work. I could measure the same part 7 times and get 3 different readings. You could give 10 people the same calipers and have them measure the same part and you'd get 10 different readings.
They are very difficult to get accurate repeatable readings.
Its too easy to use them incorrectly.
I'm not saying the tool itself is not accurate. Its very much the operators interpretation of what the measurement actually is. Its too easy to use too much pressure or to not be totally flat or straight etc.

Don't get me wrong, for metal fabrication, garage or hobbyist use without a doubt they'll work just fine.

Just because the cheap Chinese tools have a display the goes out 5 decimal places. Doesn't mean they're accurate to that power.
Every new tool should come with a calibration certificate stating its accuracy. Though the Chinese brands are likely making up those numbers.
I'd be curious just for shits if you had a brand new caliper from Harbor Freight sent out for calibration what the base test result would be?

At home I've got 2 digital HF calipers, one for metal fab and one for whatever else. When I have a task that requires precision work like engine building I'll bring home what I need from my work box.

Indicators are very useful for checking runout, concentricity, centering drills, or trueing up a vise on a mill etc.
Drop indicators or commonly known as a drop gages are superior for measuring depth, like deck height.

My favorite unique tool for manual mill work is a wiggler. Set the mill to a very low rpm and sweep the hole making adjustments to the x-y axis until the machine is perfectly centered to a particular hole.

A quality drop gage and or indicator paired with a good magnetic base is a must for doing any machine work.

I'm a turning guy not a mill guy. While I can do mill work proficiently, its not my strength.
I'm responsible for 3 different machines a Unisig gun-drill, a Hardinge chucker lathe primarily used for 2nd op work and a Nakamura WY100ii turning center.

I prefer to use digital tools where possible. They're unmistakable to read. Also the accuracy resolution is superior to a dial readout. Another plus is you can switch between metric and imperial with a push of a button. You can set your zero at any distance which you cant do with a dial-mic but still can with dial calipers.

The discussion of measuring tools is as vast as discussing engine building.
Everyone has their own preference. There are many ways to do the same thing. I'm providing my own experiences and preferences.

Every shop is different and has different requirements. A machinists tool box is very much specialized to the work at hand. Where as a mechanic has to be able to handle a lot more.

I'm very passionate about my trade. I take a lot of pride in the work I do. Passionate machinists are what help set respectable countries apart from those other ones.

The owner of Kenyon Machine is/was Greg (not sure if still alive, not brave enough to call the shop and find out) and taught me a good number of machining techniques, though been a long time and two concussions, so need at least a refresher.

As for machines, they all were from the 1940s or older, he wasn't sure. Consisted of a lathe, horizontal milling machine (very, very large), and a vertical milling machine. I used the vertical milling machine (horizontal was not to be touched by anyone else) once or twice, used the lathe half dozen times making oil pressure relief pistons. A couple of the workers were often drinking copious quantities of beer yet somehow able to produce great work (all that mattered to Greg, what they did wasn't his business), the floor around the machines thick with swarf (had more important business to do), and the wonderful smell of cutting oil. If someone offered me an apprenticeship fairly local, you bet take them up, love doing real machining, especially reproducing a broken part (without using a CNC machine). However, that is not going to happen.

I have had my calipers be reliable, though until this engine build, been using to measure hardware, mark sheet metal, stuff that didn't need 0,00mm accuracy.

Speaking of eccentricity, the chuck on the Ryobi drill press is absolute rubbish, didn't know anything about drill presses until long after purchase, took a while to figure out why the holes were so bad. Standard Jacob's taper, so see no reason to throw it out, is there a brand that be good for the hobbyist?

How about focusing on just this engine, please? Crankshaft been polished, camshaft is new, so why would there be any need for a micrometer?

Fri May 12, 2023 11:27 am

modok wrote: I don't think it's important, so feel free to form your own opinion on that.
As long as the micrometer is not damaged or horribly worn out it should be able do the job fine.
I have more problems with everything else than I do with that

But if you don't have ways of checking it's calibration then you might be better if buying new, but even cheap ones these days should be pretty good. It's a simple device.

Why, for this engine with crankshaft polished and new camshaft, have a need for a micrometer?

Fri May 12, 2023 12:04 pm

How are you going to use snap gauges ot a dial bore gauge if you don't have any micrometers?

Fri May 12, 2023 12:30 pm

You also need the micrometer to measure the crank, and make sure it is within spec. A polish job on a crank means nothing if the crank was worn to begin with. :wink:

VW has specs for bearing clearance and case fit. You need to know the outer diameter of the bearing and crank, as well as the inner diameter of the case and the bearing with the case torqued.

Fri May 12, 2023 5:57 pm

modok wrote: How are you going to use snap gauges ot a dial bore gauge if you don't have any micrometers?

Think still had in my head the calipers, forgetting not accurate enough. This is why asked the question, in case missing something.

Fri May 12, 2023 5:59 pm

Vanapplebomb wrote: You also need the micrometer to measure the crank, and make sure it is within spec. A polish job on a crank means nothing if the crank was worn to begin with. :wink:

You are right, trust Eric, though verify.

Vanapplebomb wrote: VW has specs for bearing clearance and case fit. You need to know the outer diameter of the bearing and crank, as well as the inner diameter of the case and the bearing with the case torqued.

Last time used Plastiguage, though the more I learn, the more understand the importance of measuring with tools.

Fri May 12, 2023 8:01 pm

Adriel Rowley wrote: Vanapplebomb wrote: You also need the micrometer to measure the crank, and make sure it is within spec. A polish job on a crank means nothing if the crank was worn to begin with. :wink:

You are right, trust Eric, though verify.

Not sure who Eric is, but sure… whatever works. :lol:

Adriel Rowley wrote: Vanapplebomb wrote: VW has specs for bearing clearance and case fit. You need to know the outer diameter of the bearing and crank, as well as the inner diameter of the case and the bearing with the case torqued.

Last time used Plastiguage, though the more I learn, the more understand the importance of measuring with tools.

The split center main is the only main you can measure with plastigauge…