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Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:14 am

chrisflstf wrote: Replacing that bushing is one of the worse jobs ever on a bug or ghia. In a bus I can drop the shift rod in 5 minutes. I would pay $100 for one, if it was made from the best material available.

To dismiss it, because it hasnt been tried or used before is being very narrow minded.

As soon as I get mine, I can test fit it, to see if getting past the bend is an issue, in a bus

Yes, great point. The whole reason for this thread is because the "stock" replacements are crap. They wear out quick. They are not like what was sold 20 years ago, or what came in VW's from the factory. And when you use one of the stock replacments thats available today (empi, cip1, etc) you might only get 6 months of daily driving out of it. I wore through one of those under $10 bushings in 6 months, and not happy to do that job again. This is why i looked for alternatives.

Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:54 am

I put in a delrin bushing in '10. Mine was white. The bushings in my front beam are also delrin.

Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:29 pm

jpaull wrote: I see the Samba Seller that used to sell the Bronze bushings has switched to Delrin also. (Different company then the Washburns product in the first post)

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1740498

He states here:

**Delrin® is a registered trademark of DuPont de Nemours, Inc. Delrin® acetal homopolymer (Polyoxymethylene POM) is the ideal material in parts designed to replace metal. It combines low-friction and high-wear resistance with the high strength and stiffness. Compared to acetal copolymer, Delrin® acetal homopolymer offers higher tensile strength, stiffness, creep and fatigue resistance, and significantly higher impact resistance.

Ray, what say you about the Delrin® acetal homopolymer (Polyoxymethylene POM)?

Delrin is fine...but its also just the specific brand name of DuPont's Acetal polymer. Many other companies make acetal plastics.

Like Curbell (excellent company as well. One of the big players)

Saying something is Delrin is like saying something is made out of "Lexan". Lexan just happened to be the original "polycarbonate plastic" made by General Electric in 1960....now owned and has been for a while by Sabic in Saudi Arabia.

They bought the entire GE plastics division for close to $12 billion.

Here is a list of just what Curbell sells in "acetal/Delrin"

https://www.curbellplastics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Acetal-Data-Sheet.pdf.

Notice that there are two basic families ...homopolymer and copolymer and several variants. For what this shift bushing does, odds are I can find an Acetal/Delrin version that works well.

As far as what else could be done.....the original 50's. 60's and maybe early to mid 70's bushing from my memory was Nylon 6.

Yes they lasted plenty of miles because Nylon is tough and very abrasion resistant. What killed them was climate in certain areas....wet. Nylon 6 absorbs moisture and it damages it.

Switching to Nylon 6-6 or nylon 12...fixes that.

Here is the Nylon 6 spec sheet. Check out that moisture absirption\

https://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=8d78f3cfcb6f49d595896ce6ce6a2ef1&ckck=1

But...you can get nylon 6-6 and 12 in filaments. A desktop printer could make your bushing.

Ray

Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:37 pm

I'd love to see home printed versions in a durable version. Add type 3 to the Chris's shitty job list with bugs and ghias, and every single old vw you rescue needs it done.

Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:46 pm

74 Thing wrote: I have seen this one made in Europe, but now sold at CIP1 as well.

https://www2.cip1.com/c24-111-701-259-akit/

I've had this one installed in my '73 Super for just over a month. This is my daily driver and I put 2.5 k miles on it since the week before TG (took a long road trip), so far so good. It's a hard plastic, I couldn't begin to tell what type of plastic, and 3-d printed.

Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:30 pm

jpaull wrote: Can anyone still buy the exact bushing and material that lasted 250k miles?
The one I put in was what VDub Parts Unlimited was selling 15 years ago. Unknown manufacturer.
Since then, I bought a few spares from the VW dealer in Mexico.

Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:33 pm

vamram wrote: 74 Thing wrote: I have seen this one made in Europe, but now sold at CIP1 as well.

https://www2.cip1.com/c24-111-701-259-akit/

I've had this one installed in my '73 Super for just over a month. This is my daily driver and I put 2.5 k miles on it since the week before TG (took a long road trip), so far so good. It's a hard plastic, I couldn't begin to tell what type of plastic, and 3-d printed.

I have the same one.

H2OSB

Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:33 pm

chrisflstf wrote: To dismiss it, because it hasnt been tried or used before is being very narrow minded.
No it's not. I want my car to be reliable. I don't want to be doing someone else's R&D for them. If there's been no testing to prove it's superior to the stock part, it makes no sense to try it.

Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:33 pm

I've only been in machine shops since early 2000s and machined everything from rock to platinum. I'm aware of Delrin blends. I'm amazed how someone can be so sure of something they have little to no experience with. I'm not pulling anything from my ass. No skin off my back its just not worth 40$ looks like china Delrin its a hard pass sorry your butt hurt.

Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:56 am

DesertSasquatchXploration wrote: I've only been in machine shops since early 2000s and machined everything from rock to platinum. I'm aware of Delrin blends. I'm amazed how someone can be so sure of something they have little to no experience with. I'm not pulling anything from my ass. No skin off my back its just not worth 40$ looks like china Delrin its a hard pass sorry your butt hurt.

First, I work in the plastics industry. Along with that I work in the injection molding industry. And have for over 40 years.

Second from my DIRECT experience working with a vast array of plastics in a wide range of industries from aerospace, automotive, electronics, consumer white goods and medical device mfg...I FACTUALLY know that there are at least 3 versions of Acetal plastic from at least two mfgs that I know of..... from direct....experience ....that would have "0" problems with this application.

Are these Acetal blends common? No.
Are they affordable and easy to get? Yes.
Are the highly scuff, chemical and impact resistant. Yes.

Are they easy to machine? No...not really. They are more similar to UHMW with a UV inhibitor.

The most important takeaway from that last point is that you obviously have not used or machined anything other than the most common Acetal material.

Do you know the machining differences between homopolymer and copolymer? Vastly different. Not likely you would even know which one you had unless you ordered one or the other specifically....and....visually there are 0 differences.

Next box on the material list that you need to know....was the starting blank compression molded or extruded? VAST machining differences between the two. And again, with you eye there are 0 visible differences.
And.....if what your were maching was extruded material from over a decade ago....there are HUGE differences in thermal ability, water/lubricant tolerance and center grain accuracy and void issues compared to what WAS available.

So if your Acetal/Delrin experience is over 10 years old....it's way out of date. And if your experience did not include specifying and ordering exact material by family/type, density, filling or compounding and did not include products from companies other than the two usual suspects....meaning you just picked up rod or plate from the local plastic jobber and likely had no idea what brand, series or mfg family it even was.....then you missed a lot of tech.

Not to be a complete bastard.....but not one soul ever born can LOOK at a piece of machined or molded plastic of any type.... on the internet....unless you have some kind of "Locuts uf Borg" optic attached to your head......what brand, type, family or spe the plastic is....much less what country it's from.

Just sayin! :wink:

Ray

Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:57 am

jpaull wrote: Cusser wrote: I've had my 1970 since 1972, and my 1971 Super since 1976. I've replaced the shift bushing exactly ONCE in each, so not sure one really needs a longer-lasting shift bushing.

About 270K on my 1970, and 145K on my 1971.

Can you send a link to a bushing that is the same as the one that lasted you so long? Because all thats on the market now is the empi/cip1 style that is not the same material as what lasted you so many years.
My 1970 had the factory shift bushing in it from 1970 until 2017 (I've owned it since 1972) so I know first-hand it had only the factory shift bushing at about 268K miles. I installed the new shift bushing then JBugs #111701259A and clip #111701263.

Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:26 am

On one of the 911 forums, they are using delrin as an upgrade to the originals.

Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:47 am

I also have the one sold through cip1 (red 2-piece), and can't recommend it enough. Installed mine about a year ago, and have had no issues.
If your willing to spend more than the few buck on the "original" style bushing, go with the 2-piece instead.
You don't have to remove the shift rod to install it, which was a huge plus/time saver for me.

Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:12 pm

Seems to me some suppliers offered a German or heavy duty shift bushing, like CB Performance or https://www.bugcity.com/shop/shop.lasso?pquery=shift+rod+bushing

Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:54 pm

These are available also. Delrin as well. Same guy that made the bronze bushings. I had one of those, but I sold it because of a sloppy fit to the bracket. The fit to the rod was ok, as long as the rod is perfectly round (some arent)

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1740498

Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:06 pm

Cusser wrote: Seems to me some suppliers offered a German or heavy duty shift bushing, like CB Performance or https://www.bugcity.com/shop/shop.lasso?pquery=shift+rod+bushing
My first Bug was a ‘60 built in that window after VW switched to the plastic bushing but before the retaining ring. So when I replaced it, back around ‘85, I installed the new one without the metal retainer. It worked fine so I still don’t typically use them. A stock bushing, well greased inside and out but lacking that retainer ring, has been in my buggy since ‘92. I’m thinking about some shifter mods (making the shifter handle tall enough to see through the windshield of my Mini-T) and if I do I’ll have a chance to check on the bushing, but it feels fine shifting.

I have my own idea for turning a replacement bushing. I’m thinking slip fit into the hanger so it can be slipped on the shift rod before putting it back in the tunnel. I’m thinking it needs a narrow slit so it can get around the curve in the shift rod. My idea to retain the bushing is kinda like the red 2 part bushing but would be a single hole for an extended rear stud/shifter bolt to extend into so the bushing could not move front to back or rotate.

Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:26 am

I never called anyone out (Lets make that perfectly clear) but MR raygreenwood seems pretty miffed. The self proclaimed plastics expert that has done nothing to solve our (gaslighted) (shifter bushing problem).

I'm not the bad guy here. Delrin is not superior. I'm simply Stating the replacement bushings are perfectly fine grease them during installation they will last your many years. You can use your VW to get a Christmas tree take the family to mini golf or your wife on a date everything's fine.

End of Conversion

Thu Dec 14, 2023 6:37 am

DesertSasquatchXploration wrote: I never called anyone out (Lets make that perfectly clear) but MR raygreenwood seems pretty miffed. The self proclaimed plastics expert that has done nothing to solve our (gaslighted) (shifter bushing problem).

I'm not the bad guy here. Delrin is not superior. I'm simply Stating the replacement bushings are perfectly fine grease them during installation they will last your many years. You can use your VW to get a Christmas tree take the family to mini golf or your wife on a date everything's fine.

End of Conversion

I love that....."end of conversation" :lol: ....as if the choice is YOURS or you have any control over it at all! :wink:

First....not miffed at all!

Second!....where did ANYONE......ANYONE.....state that Delrin/Acetal was ....."SUPERIOR"?

Point it out please!

This thread is NOT about me wanting to make shifter rod bushings out of Delrin. It's about the fact that someone already has....and it's about whether that material will work or not. Yes....it most certainly will work. How long and how well depends directly on which version of Delrin is being used.

Also unsaid here, which lubricant is used will factor heavily in how well ANY of these plastics work. In my experience a dry graphite or MDS would be best for any plastics mentioned here.

If you look carefully at what I posted both here and in numerous other threads concerning these shift bushings ....I actually subscribe MOST to an injection molded nylon alloy....something like Mitsubishi Nylatron 105 which is MDS filled nylon 66 cast in billets for machining or granules for molding. You can also get it in filament now.

Yes it "can" be machined but is better molded. Actually all of the plastics mentioned here....even Delrin....would be better and tougher if molded. Machining is not ideal for any of them for this part....but for the cost most are willing to pay it's the best answer.

By the way....if you have any experience at all with what's currently available as stock bushings for quite some time.....you would know as others have stated as well....that what's available (not all but plenty of it) has serious problems. Some of them are the wrong material altogether.

Of course.....as a "self proclaimed"....machinist expert.....you should already know this....right? :wink:

Ray

Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:14 am

DesertSasquatchXploration wrote: I never called anyone out (Lets make that perfectly clear) but MR raygreenwood seems pretty miffed. The self proclaimed plastics expert that has done nothing to solve our (gaslighted) (shifter bushing problem).

I'm not the bad guy here. Delrin is not superior. I'm simply Stating the replacement bushings are perfectly fine grease them during installation they will last your many years. You can use your VW to get a Christmas tree take the family to mini golf or your wife on a date everything's fine.

End of Conversion

where is the clown emoji when you need it

oh here's one 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡 🤡

Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:38 pm

Hey...I would be the first to apologize to DesertSasquatchXploration.....if I thought i had been rude or degrading.....but ai just don't think I have.

I also do not think he "called me out"....not that it's even a process or term I grew up with....and ai have no been miffed or put out at all.

You made a statement thin in your opinion and with your experience....Delrin is not the way to go. However, I think my point still stands. Being a machinist, master machinist or expert machinist.....does not make you a materials expert (much less a plastics expert).

There are just too many plastics, plastics alloys and plastic formulations....and more coming every day.....then you would ever come across in almost any machine shop.
This is because many, many plastics....are not even designed to be machined (not that you couldn't machine them....just not optimized/ideal for machine work).....so why would you know about them?

Notice I did not note anywhere that I am a machine work expert....even though the majority of the 4000 + factories I have been into have machine shops. But I am fairly expert on a wide range of materials....most of which are plastics, rubber and synthetic elastomers and resins.

From my point of view, you are simply not correct as to what the RIGHT KIND of Delrin could do for this part and others like it.

And I say that....because if it is just plain old crispy Delrin ....DesertSasquatchXploration....is exactly right. It's probably not worth $40 and probably not the best for this application. But how can you KNOW....what kind of Delrin it is from this forum?

Ray