TheSamba.com :: View topic - EJ25 JDM that I've put 25,000 miles on (and took it apart!)

Thu Mar 07, 2024 12:51 am

Interesting difference of opinions here.
Subaru 2007 says (new) ring gap should be .008"-.014"
Mahle (cast iron) says MINIMUM .016"

When I measure the Mahle gap, .015 goes in readily. and .016 can be jammed in but not fully.
That's pretty perfect for Mahle's specs.

======

The Mahle oil rings look kinda wimpy, but the expander does the deed.
The piston has resistance with just a Mahle oil ring on.
Whereas the (used) Subaru oil ring had almost no resistance.

So ..... my old Subaru compression rings end gaps (.012 & .013) are still within the 'new' specs ---->.014.
There's something to be said for re-using the Subaru compression rings, which are seated, and had great compression, no blow-by, no apparent PCV problems.
But do rings spin? Once I've removed them, will they still be 'seated' if I put them back in?
Why would Subaru tell you to take them out measure the gaps if you couldn't put them back in?
It seems that you can do this.

So what about using the original Subaru compression rings and replacing the oil ring with the Mahle?

I know what you're thinking....... that $1600 block for $2420 doesn't sound all that bad....

$2420 (and no warranty) +$228 timing belt kit + $60 head gaskets + $900 heads rebuild
= $3650

vs

$100 of rings +$330 timing belt kit, gaskets + $900 heads rebuild
= $1330.

$3650 vs $1330 hmmm

Thu Mar 07, 2024 7:01 am

Rings should rotate in their lands during operation. The Subaru oil ring is staked and should not rotate. Something the Subaru engine builders decided on. I don’t see a reason not to mix and match if your stock ring gaps are in spec.

Think how much you’re gaining for when you install the short block on the next go around. :wink:

Thu Mar 07, 2024 8:07 am

I didn't know before that Subaru staked the oil rings, but there's the root cause of all your Suby oil drinkers. What an idiotic design.

Thu Mar 07, 2024 8:20 am

Does seem like asking for it. Are the aftermarket rings the same staked design?

Thu Mar 07, 2024 8:55 am

tencentlife wrote: I didn't know before that Subaru staked the oil rings, but there's the root cause of all your Suby oil drinkers. What an idiotic design.

My thinking too. That the bottom ring land has reliefs, I don’t know that I’d want the oil ring being more conventional. I assume the replacement rings have the locking tang.

Thu Mar 07, 2024 9:26 am

Subaru engineers are probably dumber than a box o'hammers.
Well, maybe not that dumb - but surely dumber than us Samba stars. :wink:

The tiny, and lazy oil ring is likely a bid to increase fleet fuel mileage by reducing friction losses.
The difference in resistance is significant.

The old Subaru oil ring feels like there's nothing there.
The new Mahle oil ring has a lot more resistance in the bore.
Clearly the Mahle is going to scrape oil better.

The Mahle oil ring is NOT staked and has a sheet of paper that says "NEW INFORMATION".
It looks like a generic sheet tending to lots of partnumbers.

Quote:
Here's how the old oil ring inserts.
It seems real lazy.
I suspect it's the smokin' gun reason for the consumption.
The engine had great compression, 190+ and ran great too.
The upper Subaru oil ring is staked, the lower oil ring is not.
If I made a video of inserting the Mahle oil ring it would be much longer as it takes a lot more effort, and lots of fingernails etc.

I would guess that Mahle knows a bit about rings but perhaps Subaru does too.
I think Subaru knows something that doesn't work (2010 rings).

In the 2 years I've been running this JDM engine (2010?) everybody thought the problem was "coked oil rings".
I dosed this engine HARD with elixirs (Rislone® and Marvel Mystery® Oil). Even running it 1,000 miles with 40% MMO. Rislone instructions say "run 5 minutes". I drove it around with Rislone.....20 minutes.
There was no appreciable change in consumption. Maybe a 10% reduction but my measurement methods likely have more uncertainty than 10%.
BUT I don't see any coking either so who knows if the elixirs reduced the coking?

Hastings ring set is expected later today & I'm curious if the Hastings ring is staked.
I'll post a closeup pic of all three sets.

You guys appear to know something about staked rings.
Do other engines have staked oil rings (and problems) ?

Thu Mar 07, 2024 12:59 pm

Not to repeat myself too much, the only staked rings I’ve come across were on 2 strokes. They are trying to prevent a ring gap from hanging on a port opening. At least that’s my understanding.

From the beginning of this thread, what really caught my eye was the vertical stains on the pistons and cylinders. That’s something I’ve never seen before. Using the non staked oil rings, including the 1 inch spacing the directions specify, where the extender ends meet, I’d try to not have a gap over one of the ports.

Also, I don’t always follow manufacturer ring positioning. I set end gaps 180 off each other on the wrist pin side of the piston vs the thrust surfaces of the piston. I think VW recommends 120 degrees. In a boxer engine, I’d not want any gaps at the bottom of the piston as it sits in the cylinder. These are my preferences based on my experiences. Not saying they are correct for everyone.

Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:26 pm

Agreed on the 2-stroke, but it's not relevant anyway.
Aside from the total-loss lubrication aspects. .... :lol:

I inserted pistons into cylinders,,,,,, with oil-rings:
Used Subaru (super easy piston movement) top oil ring keyed
New Mahle (noticeably more ring-friction) not keyed
New Hastings (~25% more ring-friction than Mahle) top oil ring keyed

So....... having been traumatized by oil-drinking.
And 11BC2's hard recommendation on Hastings....
I'm inclined to use the Hastings oil rings.

Where $60 on the Mahle rings was an "educational expense".
Or perhaps "Internet Expense" to keep you all interested so I can have some dialogue and draw out some experience here & there.

==================

So.....

What do you all think of my proposal to put the old Subaru compression rings back in?

They are well within the service limits specified in the Subaru manual.
AND
They are bedded in
and compression was real good.
I suppose there would be "no break-in period"
and no special oils etc.

I have new Mahle cast iron rings (as "the anti-hone feller" Pete Snidal recommended) but their ring gap is bigger than the Used Subaru rings.

I have new Hastings compression rings, but they're chrome, and likely require honing.

Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:38 pm

I'd go with the original rings vs the new ones as long as they are good. Do you have them identified which cylinder & direction them came out of?

Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:25 pm

That Mahle "new information" deal is because subaru had a shit ton of revisions on this, including updated pistons.

This is what you get when you don't have a VIN

Anyway, I'm done commenting on this stuff anymore. evidently someone called my Subaru dealer and wanted a short block at my cost. Of course they got laughed out of the place but still...whoever called on MY account is a total pile of shit.

Had to be someone here as I posted the cost in the past. Whoever you are, thanks for trying to fuck up the way I feed my family....douchebag....

Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:31 pm

Misleading information causes trouble for members too.
Valid cost + value discussion is important to Samba members.

I have my rebuilt heads but forgot to order head gaskets dangit !
Who has 'knowledge' of head gasket brands / suitability?

Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:01 pm

Subaru MLS gaskets work OK.

Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:00 am

You can go pick up 6 star gaskets at all wheel drive auto.

Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:02 am

Sodo wrote: Misleading information causes trouble for members too.
Valid cost + value discussion is important to Samba members.

I have my rebuilt heads but forgot to order head gaskets dangit !
Who has 'knowledge' of head gasket brands / suitability?

The Subaru speed shop that did my rering a few years ago will only use the turbo head gaskets from Subaru.
IIRC there is another rebuilder who does the same.

Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:10 am

Sodo wrote: Misleading information causes trouble for members too.
Valid cost + value discussion is important to Samba members.
Speaking of the value of members, you didn’t actually call Skills’ engine supplier, did you?

Professionals like him even posting here are worth a hundred times those who’re just dinking around — myself included.

Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:30 am

E1 wrote:

Professionals like him even posting here are worth a hundred times those who’re just dinking around — myself included.

I appreciate that. But trying to save someone from themself just doesn't play out anymore. My daily b/s feels like being a fucking life coach to the general public... you know the kind...you tell them what you would do and why, and the stare at you...mouth agape like you just tried to talk about nuclear fission...THEN argue with you over your advice.

Do I have all the answers? Not even close... but I'm done giving out info on this shit.

Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:37 am

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: E1 wrote:

Professionals like him even posting here are worth a hundred times those who’re just dinking around — myself included.
Do I have all the answers? Not even close... but I'm done giving out info on this shit.
Hopefully you only mean “done with threads where you’re not respected.” :shock:

Non-hobbyists just trying to survive out here need the Real Deal.

Just know it’s really appreciated!!! 8)

Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:50 am

Skills your advice is in line with every professional who has weighed in.
Pre-markup business pricing was a brain-fart though.
And stifled the valuation as outlier, un-available pricing always does.

If anyone called your local Subaru dealer it was probably your local (pro) competitor. Don't blame us.
You like to write brash and make a splash, and in a public discussion, is a risk. Nobody buys that you're "hurt", its all part of the conversational method.

E1 .....do you NEED to face members off against each other? What's your goal here? Maybe start your own threads for your goals.
Can't you do this by Private Message in the background and let members focus on the project?

I think (hope) members are getting some value from this discussion if it can stay real and on-topic. Personality factors as 'entertainment' can be fun - if positive.
Positive, like MarkWard. He has his druthers but he adds valuable experience.
Mtnhome crosslinking to the anti-Hone heretic was valuable too.
What can't be fun about some feller flogging a Re-Ring?
Pull up a chair!

How many would REALLY be interested if I just rolled this lump over the edge and dropped $2420 on a new Subaru block?
You'd wanna see pics of it, right?
Oooooo shiny!

Repairing the valves is a given and was double what i expected (like everything in reality-numbers).
Going one step deeper and changing the oil-rings is valid too.
I waited a little for someone to tell me which Oil rings might be the best but nobody provided such, so I had to buy some and get my own info,
It cost $100 for two sets of new rings (cheap information!), and some time.

If I didn't try this, I'm positive you all would be disappointed in me.

======= back on topic =======

Current status is:
I'm just putting the Subaru (compression) rings back in, because they had good compression, were already bedded-in, and were within Subaru specs for re-use.
But I'm using the new Hastings oil rings (only the oil rings).
Putting the pistons back in today (I think).
I'm thinking that there is no "break-in ritual" required.

Hopefully ridding me of this ritual
.....or at least ......reducing the frequency.

Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:13 am

Sodo wrote: Skills your advice is in line with every professional who has weighed in.
Pre-markup business pricing was a brain-fart though.
And stifled the valuation as outlier, un-available pricing always does.

If anyone called your local Subaru dealer it was probably your local (pro) competitor. Don't blame us.
You like to write brash and make a splash, and in a public discussion, is a risk. Nobody buys that you're "hurt", its all part of the conversational method.

E1 .....do you NEED to face members off against each other? What's your goal here? Maybe start your own threads for your goals.
Can't you do this by Private Message in the background and let members focus on the project?

I think (hope) members are getting some value from this discussion if it can stay real and on-topic. Personality factors as 'entertainment' can be fun - if positive.
Positive, like MarkWard. He has his druthers but he adds valuable experience.
Mtnhome crosslinking to the anti-Hone heretic was valuable too.
What can't be fun about some feller flogging a Re-Ring?
Pull up a chair!

How many would REALLY be interested if I just rolled this lump over the edge and dropped $2420 on a new Subaru block?
You'd wanna see pics of it, right?
Oooooo shiny!

Repairing the valves is a given and was double what i expected (like everything in reality-numbers).
Going one step deeper and changing the oil-rings is valid too.
I waited a little for someone to tell me which Oil rings might be the best but nobody provided such, so I had to buy some and get my own info,
It cost $100 for two sets of new rings (cheap information!), and some time.

If I didn't try this, I'm positive you all would be disappointed in me.

======= back on topic =======

Current status is:
I'm just putting the Subaru (compression) rings back in, because they had good compression, were already bedded-in, and were within Subaru specs for re-use.
But I'm using the new Hastings oil rings (only the oil rings).
Putting the pistons back in today (I think).
I'm thinking that there is no "break-in ritual" required.

Hopefully ridding me of this ritual
.....or at least ......reducing the frequency.
My only “goal” is to keep professional posters posting, ones whose advice actually helps, and now you’ve insulted his style.

Since you disrespected one right here and now, at least twice, suggesting a PM is a bit rich. Throwing Mark Ward in the mix defies what you just said.

You pretty much argue on other threads about every bloody thing I post. Mirror, mirror.

Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:36 am

Not every bloody thing.
Just where I think there was a technical detail that members need to know. Sorry for that.
But that is the nature of a technical discussion.
People need to get their vans fixed.
Please look at from a technical point of view rather than emotional.
And I'll keep the emotional part in mind for the future,
and try to ensure sure the technical detail actually helps advance the project at-hand.

If my re-oil-ring :wink: project works.... my brother has dibs on the 2 qt flask
He's a hardhead too, but has a good job, not much spare time.
He 's a candidate for the new Subaru short-block method.....