TheSamba.com :: View topic - EJ25 JDM that I've put 25,000 miles on (and took it apart!)

Sat Mar 02, 2024 5:12 pm

Sodo wrote:
I can do that. But then I get rings for that VIN.
Will they fit my engine?

here's the Hastings Asian catalog... look up your engine and see how wide the year/engine coverage is. it also shows the GRV or ring groove measurement the ring is for so if you match those up, you are really narrowing it down.

https://hastingspistonrings.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/asian-catalog-americas.pdf

if you're willing to take the risk of R&R at a later date (the engine WILL work at least as good as before), i'd sure consider a $100 set of Hastings rings and give it a whirl. the heads will have to be re-used on a short block anyway so no loss nor savings there. i know, i know.... everyone says use OE Subaru parts. Hastings makes good stuff, all they make is rings. consider it. the question is could you live with 1200 mi/qt when you're done. my ratty 87 does that and i drive it everywhere, including an upcoming 4000 mile trip. as my Dad used to say.... oil is cheap.

Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:56 am

Looks like a complete engine set of Hastings rings STD for EJ25 is only about $50.
Different oil ring thickness for each engine variant listed in Hastings catalog mentioned above.

https://www.amazon.com/Hastings-2C5219-4-Cylinder-Piston-Ring/dp/B0049N3MIG
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hsn-2c5219

https://www.amazon.com/Hastings-2C5140-4-Cylinder-Piston-Ring/dp/B0049NI2A4
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hsn-2c5140

https://www.amazon.com/Hastings-2C4957-4-Cylinder-Piston-Ring/dp/B0049NA6RG
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hsn-2c4957

Sun Mar 03, 2024 12:37 pm

Thanks for digging that up!

With the partnumber 2C5219 - I found it at RockAuto for $29+$11 shipping and delivery in 2 days.

Here's piston pics.
Close-up shows the valve contact on four pistons.
The carbon pretty much "wiped off" after softening with carburetor cleaner. That's not what I recall the other times I've had pistons out.
Maybe because there was so much oil all the time.

Honey-brown pistons. Does this mean anything? ( anything good?) Or do all Subaru pistons look like this?

Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:35 pm

Pennzoil used to be reknown for honey-brown deposits on engine internals. it was good oil, lubricated well, but the base stock reportedly left that brown stain. i'm sure the formulation is totally different now

what's interesting is that staining can fill the grooves of the cross hatch honing pattern and lead to high oil consumption. chicken or egg situation.... did high operating temps cause staining and hone mark filling or did high oil consumption cause blow-by and consequent staining. either way, a good honing is mandatory and will remove any deposit glazing.

Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:16 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:

I know VW people are naturally cheap

CHEAP?

Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:42 pm

So cheap.....

It's looking like the parts I need to freshen up the short block is coming out to $330 from RockAuto.

Compared to $2200 +$220 TAX = $2420
for the $1600 short block that so cheap
it's like skills kissing his sister. :lol:

New pistons with fresh anti-friction coating would add another $200 for Silv-O-Lite or $300 for Subaru.
I do like the idea of fresh anti-friction coating on the pistons.
Still wondering if anyone knows how long that coating lasts.
Any comments about Silv-O-Lite .vs. Subaru?

So adding fresh pistons makes it -----> $530-$630

Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:00 pm

i wouldn't do the new pistons without a rebore... and now you're back into shortblock economics!

you need to either bring the whole mess into a machine shop, have them mic everything and tell you how bad it is and then go the shortblock route (skip the machine shop if directly committed to the shortblock), OR just put some rings in it quick 'n dirty and end up with what you had worst case scenario. but in all likelyhood, with new valve stem seals and new rings, you'll be in a better spot than you were.

regardless of the shortblock or re-ring decision, your budget needs to include break in oil, which i consider a must. add $55 for 5 qt. BR30 and personally, i'd add $20 for Total Seal.

so. i would go cheap or go big but wouldn't go half way with just new pistons!

Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:51 pm

Sodo wrote: So cheap.....

It's looking like the parts I need to freshen up the short block is coming out to $330 from RockAuto.

Compared to $2200 +$220 TAX = $2420
for the $1600 short block that so cheap
it's like skills kissing his sister. :lol:

New pistons with fresh anti-friction coating would add another $200 for Silv-O-Lite or $300 for Subaru.
I do like the idea of fresh anti-friction coating on the pistons.
Still wondering if anyone knows how long that coating lasts.
Any comments about Silv-O-Lite .vs. Subaru?

So adding fresh pistons makes it -----> $530-$630

add in all the time and consumables...

I don't care what anyone does...I just spend my time more wisely than my money. I can make money...I can't make time....

Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:09 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: I don't care what anyone does...I just spend my time more wisely than my money. I can make money...I can't make time....

Yeah hobbyist time is vastly different.
But the hobbyist doesn't write a number on an invoice and get paid for it plus 20% markup.

DanHoug wrote: i wouldn't do the new pistons without a rebore...

So Dan you are not particularly impressed by renewing the teflon coating.
Those short skirts kinda give me the willies ....missing their anti-friction coating.
I can't get any info on how long the coating typically lasts though.

So you think $200 for pistons is not worth the escalation of boring.
Agreed.
Im curious about $200 of new teflon .....and just honing.

DanHoug wrote: your budget needs to include break in oil, which i consider a must. add $55 for 5 qt. BR30 and personally, i'd add $20 for Total Seal. When you buy a new car, does it come with a break-in oil ?

I sure don't wanna do the oil-drinker ritual again, if there's a real way to prevent it.

OK to clarify....

This is the "worst bore" that I have.

The 'fingernail test" detects no difference between
un-touched factory honing at A
& the rings switching direction at B.
C is at the cylinder bottom, the most worn, where the piston rubs the hardest.
The bore wear has obviously not exceeded the depth of the honing scratches.
Would you guys expect that boring .020 over could improve upon this cylinder?
Or could messing with it
(in any way....other than breaking the glaze)
likely be worse than this
and thus don't fook with it?

I'm not thinking of boring. But I don't do this kind of work often (ever).
Before boring, I'd be inclined to spend the $2420 on the new Subaru shortblock.

To me, this is a pristine factory bore, where only the glaze needs to be broken and some fresh honing scratches added.
Restoring the finish to un-measurably equal to factory.
Aside from----> I'll never achieve that consistent machined honing angle!

Am I mistaken in thinking that honing can restore this bore to "as-new" condition?

Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:56 pm

Eh, going with experience of american v8's,,, ridged hone it, re-ring it and use a high zinc break-in oil for a coupla hundred miles.
OR,, give up on the Subby, and go back to WBX....

Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:32 am

I know zippo about these weirdo engines, but that pic of the cross hatching isn't really promising. The only horizontal engines I'm familiar with are VWs and BMW bikes. If I saw that kind of variation in glazing on those engines, I'd surely plan to replace the pistons and jugs. That coupled with the wear on the piston skirts tells me the P&Ls are toast. Game over. This gets a full rebuild, or I'd find another bottom end.

Mon Mar 04, 2024 4:15 am

Quote: But the hobbyist doesn't write a number on an invoice and get paid for it plus 20% markup.

Its 100% markup in the picketed money to keep the shop open, the lights on, the taxes Paid, and the woke fees flowing to Hartford.

Seriously, my charity rate of $60 would never run a shop.

Mon Mar 04, 2024 6:01 am

Sodo wrote: So Dan you are not particularly impressed by renewing the teflon coating.
Those short skirts kinda give me the willies ....missing their anti-friction coating.
I can't get any info on how long the coating typically lasts though.

doing some insomniac reading, here's a rabbit hole of discussion, some specific to Subaru, on the coating. some say the coating helps during break-in and wears off fast, others say the coating stays on. there is a HUGE variety of coatings, usually moly, that are applied, each manufacturer with their secret sauce and baking technique. what's clear, is that it is unclear if the coating is helpful in the long term. at least from internet parrots. one person said his wore thru in 7,000 miles.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1676484

Sodo wrote: When you buy a new car, does it come with a break-in oil ?
they used to. tight tolerances of modern car engine manufacturing has eliminated the need. running a ball hone thru your block in your backyard is not considered modern manufacturing. you need the break-in oil, with high zinc, no detergents, and not too slippery to allow the rings and hone finish to marry for minimal oil usage. THEN you can go to a synthetic.

Sodo wrote: I sure don't wanna do the oil-drinker ritual again, if there's a real way to prevent it.
there is... open up your wallet, get the short block. only you can decide if the chance of improving oil control and the tolerance of living with it using oil if not improved is worth the R&R for spending only a few hunnerd bucks.

Sodo wrote: To me, this is a pristine factory bore, where only the glaze needs to be broken and some fresh honing scratches added.
you don't know it is pristine without mic'ing for ovality, wear, and taper. could be lipstick on a pig.

Sodo wrote: Am I mistaken in thinking that honing can restore this bore to "as-new" condition?
yes, mistaken! honing will only restore the cylinder wall finish. home honing gets 'pretty good'... takes a machine shop with a Sunnen hone to get it perfect. "as-new" includes aforementioned ovality, wear, and taper that hasn't been measured.

for the shop owner with a customer, this is a no-brainer... you fix it right. for the hobbiest with lots of skills and tools, it becomes a choice based on risk assessment and risk tolerance vs cost and time. right now, i have more time than money. 5 years ago, it was the opposite. the good news is that if you DO go the hone and ring route, it should be at LEAST as good as it was if:

- new ring end gap is in spec
- hone finish is correct and properly cleaned afterwards
- break-in oil is used for 500 miles

are the short blocks bought outright or exchange? if exchange, will they take a JDM engine without a VIN as core?

Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:33 am

Lots of good discussion here. I'm definitly an amateur but I was influenced by this post in this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6342675&highlight=#6342675
The entire thread is a good read.

I did not hone when I re-ringed my engine and it seems to be doing well. Have not had to add oil between oil changes yet but have only put about 12,000 miles on it so far but averaging 20 mpg.

I'd probably just re-ring that engine and go camping. In the meantime, you can look for a replacement engine, do all the prep work, and store it with your spare tranny.

Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:03 am

Thanks Dan for the dialogue.

DanHoug wrote: the good news is that if you DO go the hone and ring route, it should be at LEAST as good as it was if:

- new ring end gap is in spec
- hone finish is correct and properly cleaned afterwards
- break-in oil is used for 500 miles

This is my general plan.
Replacing the pistons adds some risk.
If the anti-friction coating isn't important to restore then the old pistons are prob OK.
They are real tight in the bore, I cannot feel any wobble in the skirt direction.

Hopes & prayers on the oil consumption.

Here's how the old oil ring inserts.
It seems real lazy.
I suspect it's the smokin' gun reason for the consumption.
The engine had great compression, 190+ and ran great too.
But I've never seen an oil ring so tiny as that 2mm, except on a small motorcycle.
This is a 4 inch bore, same as a350 chevy v8.

So do you think the new oil rings take more effort to insert than this video?

On an EJ, the rings are inserted from the top thus it has an install taper at top.

Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:06 am

mtnhome wrote: I was influenced by this post in this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6342675&highlight=#6342675
.....
I did not hone when I re-ringed my engine and it seems to be doing well. Have not had to add oil between oil changes yet but have only put about 12,000 miles on it so far but averaging 20 mpg.

Thanks very much for this link.
Very interesting and logical.
I'm quite inclined to use my old pistons and NOT fook with the polished bore.
The bore still has the original hone scratches - which hold oil as "they say".
Maybe a very light "hand-sand" with 400?

RockAuto lists some iron rings for a checkbook-smokin' $24
And the Mahle for $60 but I never got sense whether the Mahle were actually cast iron.
And why would a company make special rings for the rogue builder?
And why would RockAuto stock them?

mtnhome where did you get your rings?

Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:25 am

Sodo wrote: mtnhome wrote: I was influenced by this post in this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6342675&highlight=#6342675
.....
I did not hone when I re-ringed my engine and it seems to be doing well. Have not had to add oil between oil changes yet but have only put about 12,000 miles on it so far but averaging 20 mpg.

Thanks very much for this link.
Very interesting and logical.
I'm quite inclined to use my old pistons and NOT fook with the polished bore.
The bore still has the original hone scratches - which hold oil as "they say".
Maybe a very light "hand-sand" with 400?
But what company would make cast iron rings for a modern engine?

I just did a light cleaning with a green Scotchbrite pad and some WD-40, then wiped with paper towels until they came out clean. I used a set pf NPR rings and moved on. Edit- I got the rings off eBay years ago but Smallcar or many other suppliers in your area should have some on hand.
I only paid $300 for the donor car and I also have a NIB factory short block for future replacement. I'm betting you'll go many miles with new rings and a general refresh of seals on the block, certainly no worse off.

Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:34 am

Sodo wrote:
Maybe a very light "hand-sand" with 400?

don't use sandpaper, Scotchbrite if anything. but this is important..... looking at photos online, it looks like the cylinders are integral to the block, is that correct? if so, then there's no way i would hone without total engine disassembly as you will NEVER get it clean enough to remove the grit or keep the grit from going everywhere it shouldn't. i'm not sure i would even use Scotchbrite solely for the reason of not being able to clean grit out, which requires copious amounts of hot soapy water and a toilet brush.

you are far better off doing nothing than leaving grit in the engine. i was thinking the cylinders lifted off the block as twin units.

i honed a Volvo B18B 4 cylinder engine in place once. covered the crank as best i could. i was young and stupid, it was a mess, and i'm sure i didn't get things clean. uff ta.

so. it's getting simpler. don't touch the integral cylinder/block with grit, slap rings in, and don't even need break-in oil nor Total Seal ring seat powder with an old, glazed finish on the cylinders.

or buy a shortblock.

Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:01 am

By sandpaper I meant the black stuff. Not sand.
And lightly.
Dan, you are saying scotchbrite abrasives are different?

I'm concerned that
simple (since I'm enthralled by my flawless bores)
or
$2420 for a short blockcould end up "the same", except for the $2,000 MIA.

And you may know that
I'm a thrill-seeker,
I've gotten home thus far from many multi-thousand mile trips in a 35yo vehicle
(not without drama)
and it's apparent that my wife hasn't killed me.

Let me just add that Smallcar said they bought Subaru shortblocks for awhile but did not find the results to be better than their in-house engine builder.
I don't recall them saying "worse" but they said the shortblock reliability "wasn't better".
They put out a LOT of engines and are in a position to know.
And Subaru offers no warranty with no VIN, so George had to fix them in-house anyway.

What about..... $24 cast iron 1st & 2nd ring....
But buy a higher quality rings set and harvest its oil ring?

Then with two sets in-hand, I can install the oil ring that 'resists' more?
Hard to imagine this kind of info is available - without simply comparing the oil rings myself.

I never thought it would come to rogue mechanikking (but should I have known :wink: ?).
That's a problem with the long, drawn-out planning stage.
Of course just "simply install the danged new rings!" is still a reasonable option.

Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:16 am

Sodo wrote:

Yeah hobbyist time is vastly different.
But the hobbyist doesn't write a number on an invoice and get paid for it plus 20% markup.

please :roll:

I use to be the guy that would spend 60 hours a week rebuilding a clock on top of my normal daily grind.

I just can't

how many hours have you spent fiddle fucking around trying to make a decision, reading, asking more questions etc?

I bet enough to the point you could have worked an extra few hours a week at your day job and then just bought the shortblock...

but whatever. I'd rather do other things with my time..... now if this was a super rare engine...it's a different story...but it's not

Hone it and just fuckin send it. You're going to spend more in parts wash/carb clean getting all the grit out of the thing than it's worth...so just go full junkyard overhaul and cross your fingers...