TheSamba.com :: View topic

Fri Mar 07, 2025 6:11 pm

Not seen one of these for a while. Hope it creates some discussion and not too much controversy.
I know the preliminary results but will post final dyno results later next week as I pick up the motor next week Wednesday..
What's your guess as to HP (uncorrected) and at what rpm?

Motor specs
82 stroke x 94 bore VW type 1
Panchito 044, home ported via Brian_S video, touched up by builder and "good valve job" added, CNC chamber (modified by builder), VW650 springs, Ti retainers
Scat 1.4 rockers (.550" lift at valve)
Cr 8.7:1
CIMA / Mahle pistons with new Grant rings
Engle FK-10, builder was going to use FK-8 but told builder this was "fun" street engine and wanted a motor that pulled harder as it approached redline (I have close ratio gear box).
Dual Dellorto 45s with CB spray bar update (long ago discontinued), don't know vents but I think they are original.
VW Thing fan housing with welded fan and stock-size CE pulley
A-1 Low-down header, 1 5/8" with muffler
Shockwave ignition, softest springs, total advance 30 degrees

I'll start, my guess was 140HP at maybe a bit over 6,000 rpm but less than 6,500.

Fri Mar 07, 2025 6:20 pm

Dubdyno says 156hp @6500 and 147tq @5000

Fri Mar 07, 2025 7:49 pm

If the dyno is accurrate my guess is 145hp at 6,000rpm and 160ftlb torque at 4800rpm. The compression is low for that cam, and the heads are very light for the cam.

Sat Mar 08, 2025 12:03 am

94touring wrote: Dubdyno says 156hp @6500 and 147tq @5000
Close, but peaking a lot lower. Prolly around 53-5500.
heads are the limiting factor.
Also, power window is too low for the update kit to work properly. I suggest you remome it and go back to the stock set up.

Sat Mar 08, 2025 1:23 am

I will be curious to see your results. Not far from my build. Mine was supposed to be 2276 but ended up 2332. My panchito are CNC chambered at 61cc casting from 2016-2017.

2332- 84x94
Panchitos CNC match port intakes
45 dells rebuilt by Rick hunt
Web 86b w/ 1.4
Tp tool steel lifters
Porsche swivel adjusters
Lightened flywheel 12.5lb

I have the 61 cc panchitos, built with .045 deck height came out to about 9.5:1. At one point I had an fk10. Alstruo recommended mini wedge heads for that combo. I backed the cam down to the 86b, used the panchitos. It pulls like a freight train, 1st gear almost useless, but I suspect like alstruo said it is done between 55-5800. Perfect for around town fun though. Long I terstate running in 100* Texas heat oil temps get up about 230 and settle

Sat Mar 08, 2025 5:01 am

I would love to see the outcome of these engines. I have panchitos from 2016 -2017 that will be going on an oxyboxer, web 86b, 1.4 : 1 rocker, 9.5:1 compression, Trijet dells.

Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:02 am

I don't have a dyno to close so probably won't be getting numbers anytime soon. My engine runs like a scalded dog though. Tune is perfect. The 45 dells are fantastic. Cylinder 3 plug always looks a nice golden toasted brown. I only have about 100 total miles on the engine so far as it's a spare weekend toy.

I am sure the panchitos are definitely limiting my potential, but it runs so well and I really didn't intend to race. The only reason I would switch heads or cam at this point would actually be to reduce the bottom end torque in favor of top end just for ease of driving.

Sat Mar 08, 2025 10:17 am

Emeraldlion wrote: I don't have a dyno to close so probably won't be getting numbers anytime soon. My engine runs like a scalded dog though. Tune is perfect. The 45 dells are fantastic. Cylinder 3 plug always looks a nice golden toasted brown. I only have about 100 total miles on the engine so far as it's a spare weekend toy.

I am sure the panchitos are definitely limiting my potential, but it runs so well and I really didn't intend to race. The only reason I would switch heads or cam at this point would actually be to reduce the bottom end torque in favor of top end just for ease of driving.
The Dub Dyno indicates, 158HP @6500RPM and 153Tq @4500 RPM.
What is this engine in, you bus or bug?

I ran an 86b in a 2180 with Tim's Stage II heads. It was a handful in my local traffic. But fun when I could depress the fun pedal. 8)

Sat Mar 08, 2025 10:28 am

It's in a 67 beetle full dress. The throttle response is so instant and powerful if you are in first and don't feather it right it gets fishy fast. I have just been starting out in second and it's much more manageable.

Sat Mar 08, 2025 11:49 am

Emeraldlion wrote: It's in a 67 beetle full dress. The throttle response is so instant and powerful if you are in first and don't feather it right it gets fishy fast. I have just been starting out in second and it's much more manageable.
You need new tyres.

Sat Mar 08, 2025 12:08 pm

Thanks for the recommendation. Maybe just my poor choice of words, it's not losing traction, tires are fine. The power delivery for 1800 lbs just makes it a lot to handle right out of the gate. I'm sure a lot has to do with me getting used to it as well.

Sat Mar 08, 2025 12:46 pm

I'm the OP. was told by builder that curve on the dyno indicated that power would peak a bit beyond 6,000 rpm.
He likes the Dellortos too, says the motor is "super responsive."

Sat Mar 08, 2025 2:00 pm

jpaull wrote: The compression is low for that cam, and the heads are very light for the cam.

100%

Sat Mar 08, 2025 3:16 pm

I contacted Pat directly about Panchito heads in 2023, and he said the Panchito responds well to more duration.

If you look at the Panchito-headed engines built by Pat before he left CB, a handful of them have the Panchito / 2292 (CB's FK10) combo. The larger (2276cc +) carbureted engines peak at 6K or less.

https://www.cbperformance.com/category-s/352.htm

Sat Mar 08, 2025 3:39 pm

Well, I have dynoed probably 15 engines with Panchito´s. Both the old cnc and the newer ones. But, never with more than the 86b cam though. On 2275 displacement they all peak between 4900 and 5400 rpm dependant on choice of exh, carburetion etc. and typically in the 148-152 hp / 230 Nm range.
2110/2165´s engines peak around 5500-5600 and 155-160 hp. and 220-230 Nm.
2007/2020´s and the variations around that, 150-155 @ 5800-6000 and 210-220 Nm
A nicely built 1914 with a Web #110/163 and 1,25 rockers pulled 140 hp @ 5800 and a healthy 200 Nm torque. Very nice engine.
All With belt.

I dont care who claims those phantom numbers. The Panchito´s wohnt support that unless reworked quite a bit, or used on a smaller displacement with a lot of cam duration. Next problem is that there is not much material to work with. Soo.
That said, these numbers sort of corresponds with what a set of corrected Panchito´s flow IRL. Not the advertised numbers.
As I have mentioned before, the sweet spot for those heads in a performance set up is 2100 to 2165 cc No more. If we are talking bus type engines where a wide torque band is more important, - and people over cam their engines, they can do pretty good anyway because the power curve will be "long and flat" so to speak.

Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:01 am

Why such an old cam grind?

An FK-46/ FK-48 is a newer lobe profile and IMHO a much better cam option for both bottom end grunt through the top.

https://youtu.be/WhHeSwIydwI?feature=shared

Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:43 am

Torben, I don't disagree with you on the expected output of engine. Although I'm pretty happy with my engine, you were right to steer me towards better output heads. Our beetle is great around town, what feels like plenty of torque right of the bat and steady until it's done much like you said. If it feels done around 580/ it's likely actually done by 5500 I suspect.

I'm sure one day I will get a hair to break it down and change the cam and heads but for now it is a great around town driver.

Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:49 am

On my way to pick up my motor later this AM.
:)

Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:51 am

Most excellent! Exciting day, I remember when I got mine. Remember to take pictures

Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:59 am

People don’t build their own engines anymore?