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Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:06 pm

We have spoken about cranks a lot lately.

I have not read anything lately about flanged cranks tho.

What about Scat flanged cranks?
What about Bugpack flanged cranks?
What about split bearings and where to get them?
What about the main seal, where to get one and how to install?
Any special machining to the case in the flanged area?
Clutch combinations for these?

What is the hard core opinions? What is the bad experiances? What is the pro's and con's?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:55 pm

Hey joescoolcustoms! You seem to know a lot more about cranks than I do, but I can give you some info about a flanged crank from one of the engines I saw a friend build. The engine was a 2442 in a Scat Case using a Bugpack Flanged Crank. The crank had the Type 4 Center Main, and he used Bugpacks adapter bearing because the case was a Type 1 Main Journal Case. If you get a flanged crank you usually can only get the split bearings from the crank manufacture like Bugpack, or Scat. As for the quality/durability of Bugpack Cranks, I think Eric Calabrese uses one in his Red Baron Drag Beetle. I read in the classifieds that Scat is retooling thier cranks to now be made from Billet Chromoly. That company Moldex I mentioned in the other post are Billet as well, and they seem to have the best flanged cranks from what I've read on other ACVW forums. The aftermarket Scat Case used in the 2442 build was allready made for a flanged crank/seal. If you are using a OEM VW Style Case, it needs to be machined for the flange mainseal. It installs much like the standard main seal, it just seals around the flange of the crank instead of the flywheel. If you get a crank with the Type 4 Center Main you can use the adapter bearing for a Type 1 Case. Some of the cranks have all Type 4 Mains in which you need to have the line bore opened up for the larger bearings. Bugpack has flanged flywheels that use either a VW 200mm Clutch, a JG "Floater" Clutch, and a Tilton Clutch setup. Due to the fact that the least expensive setup is probably going to run around $1200 for the crank, bearings, and flywheel, the 2442 my friend built is the only one I've ever seen. I know buggy guys that don't have $1200 in thier entire buggy! The pro's I can think of would be that a flanged crank is going to be the ultimate in strength, and durability. The only con I can think of would be the small hassel of having to use the flanged style bearings. Maybe some of the hardcore dragracers will chime in with some more info.

Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:59 am

Expensive! To build on it..also expensive! :lol:

Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:05 pm

[email protected]

Quote: You seem to know a lot more about cranks than I do

I know about materials and fabricating, but not much about cranks.

I have just purchased a Bugpack flanged 84 mm stroke crank, flywheel and bolts for my 2332 drag engine. Turns out it does have the type IV center main journal and the chevy rod journals. I plan on running a 5.7 H beam rod. Hope I do not "go to school" on this adventure.

Where is a good place to purchase the needed split #1 main bearing, split main seal, chevy rod bearings, and an adaptor/bearing for the center T IV main? Are the chevy rod journals on a VW crank narrower than a stock chevy, if so, do they come already cut down and chamfered? Does anyone supply clevite H bearings for the VW?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:40 am

This is what I know.

Jach Sachette at Jaycee can take care of all your flange crank needs including case machining. he can do it all!

CB Performance sells Clevite rod Bearings.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:03 am

i'm thinking about building a 2332 turbo for my street car. is the flanged crank worth using in this application? so the bugpack flanged crank is a good product? any one know why it is so much cheaper than the scat?
1200 for crank, flywheel, bearings doesn't seem so bad considering that the scat crank is 1200. how spendy is the moldex?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:19 am

Hey joescoolcustoms, I think you made a good purchase for a very durable bottom end. The flanged style main bearings, adapter bearing, and flanged mainseal are all available from Bugpack. A Bugpack dealer thats somewhat close to you would be Jim's Custom VW's in Columbiana OH (www.jimscustomvw.com). I think he has the main seal in stock, but may have to get the bearings for you. The "Chevy" Rod Journals aren't actually Chevy, they're from a Buick V-6. I'm not sure what a Clevite H bearing is, but the standard Clevite Bearing for a VW Crank with a "Chevy" Journal is CB-610P. I have gotten them at my local Autozone, but CB has them as well like [email protected] mentioned. Jake Raby has a way of using a higher quality actual Chevy Clevite Bearing and narrowing it to use with a VW Crank with the "Chevy" Journal. Like [email protected] said, Jach Sachette can take care of any bearing, or case modification. If the machine shop you were referring to in the other crank post is Kieth's, he should be able to help you out with bearing and case mods as well.

Hey puddles, if you have the extra money to spend on a flanged crank set up it's going to hold up the best. Depending on how much HP you are planning on, it may not be needed. I know of a gentleman, named Richie Webb from the UK, that uses a Wedgemated Scat Pro-Comp Dowell Crank in his Turbo Street Car. The car has been dynoed to have 471HP at the wheels, and it's run 9.90's at 140+ in the quarter. I'm not saying this to make joescoolcustoms feel that his purchase is overkill. Richie told me his Pro-Comp crank has worked well for many years, but if he was building a "pure race car" he would get a flanged crank. For a street/race car I would use the non flanged crank because of the use of the less expensive bearings, and not having to get any work done to the case. The only reason I can think of that Bugpack's Cranks are less expensive is maybe thier manufacturing process is cheaper. Scats lesser expensive cranks are quite a bit more than the ones form Empi and CB. Like I mentioned above, I think Eric Calabrese uses a Bugpack Crank in his Red Baron Drag Beetle. I think it was dynoed at 733HP to the wheels. Scat's cranks that are $1200 are being discontinued in favor of new Billet Cranks. I read on thesamba that thier Billet Crank will be close to $1500 when they are available. I did speak with a guy I got some carbs off of that had a Moldex Crank. They are Billet Chromoly like the new Scat ones, and he said the Moldex Cranks start at $1800. You guys are way out of my financial league! I'm hoping to have less than $1200 in my next shortblock! LOL

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:16 am

The reason, and the only reason i got the flanged crank -vs- a dowelled crank was one came avaliable used with very little time, at a fair deal (25 % off) with flywheel and flange bolts. The cost savings put it at the upper end of my budget. But purchasing a CB crank and shipping, then purchase a flywheel and wedgemating, I am right in there on cost -vs- cost. Also I will have a little added strength with the center T IV main.

The H bearings are made for racing purposes. In a 8.5:1 CR SBC engine, stock bearings will perform for 100's of thousands of miles. But when you start to squeeze it to 13:1, you start to hammer the soft bearings out and loose material from the bearing. The H bearings are a lot harder so you sacrifice some journal crank life, but at maybe 120 miles per year and no spun/thrown rods, the price is worth it. An H brand new looks horid. It looks like it has already been burnt and wore out, but it does not have the soft, light grey babbet overlay that makes it look nice.

I found quite a few Bugpack dealers on the internet that carry the needed accessories. Keiths is the shop close to me and Vic's dad (Keith) helped me a lot back in the 80's. Last year Vic told me he is not a Bugpack dealer, but he purchases from Bugpack and can get anything I need from them. I am sure Vic can do what ever machining on the case I need to fit the crank.

For the Street a dowelled crank is fine and depending of how hard on the car you are or what level of HP you are shooting for, wedgemating is a possible addition.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:32 pm

The Clevite 745H and HX bearings can be narrowed about .130 to fit the CB 610P outfitted rods. No big deal.

I have swapped to ACL Australian made bearings, their "P" bearing is just as tough as the 745H Clevite and drops right in.. They also like our coating process better... Clevite released a bulletin in 2007 that stated that "P" bearings were no longer to be coated due to a material change..

So I quit using them altogether.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:07 am

geeketon, i was hoping just to get 200-250 at the wheels. i was told that wedgemating was a pain in the ass to take the flywheel off?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:32 pm

puddles wrote: geeketon, i was hoping just to get 200-250 at the wheels. i was told that wedgemating was a pain in the ass to take the flywheel off?

Wedgemating does make it difficult to remove the flywheel, but if your building this car for the street than your motor shouldnt have to have the flywheel come off frequently.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:48 pm

Yes, wedgemating does make it more difficult to remove the flywheel. I had the flywheel wedgemated on the N/A 2332 I'm currently building that my goal is to have around 180hp at the wheels. This will be a street car that gets taken to the track a few times with some M&H Dot Tires. Everyone, but one person recomended that I wedgemated the flywheel. If you are planning on abusing your 2332 Turbo engine at any time, I would wedgemate it. From the engine builders I have spoken with, if you have 250 HP at the wheels, it's not if, but when your flywheel will come off. I'm assuming you're going to have around at least $5000+ in a turnkey turbo engine. For around $180 for the wedgemating, why not have the insurance your flywheel won't come off? If you don't wedgemate, and your flywheel does come off, it usually ruins the crank, flywheel, and possibly the bell housing of the tranny case. I'm sure there are people running big engines that have never been wedgemated without ever having a problem, but for the small amount of money it is to have it done I think it's silly not to.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:26 pm

Before I purchased this flanged crank, I was going to have my crank wedgemated by my local machinest. He told me he would set up my # 1 bearing shims to get a 0.004 inch endplay. He also told me to retorque the flywheel several times and between each torquing and during, use a soft deadblow to help seat the flywheel. I would then check the endplay to match the 0.004 inch he set up up for, this would ensure it was seated.

A racer I had spoken to told me he removes the flywheel after splitting the case, holding the crank and hitting the backside of the flywheel with a soft deadblow. The flywheel will eventually fall into the grass.

One long ago experience in the late 80's, I built a 1641 with a mild cam, single 40 dual DCNF, 041 heads ported in a baja. I used a stock flywheel that was not even 8 dowelled. It did not even last the break in period. I was told at that time it not only needed 8 dowells, but lightened so the rotating mass did not stress the small diameter circle of dowells. The rotating mass is held by a small circle about 2 inches in diameter.

I would reccomend wedgemating any crank that will be over 175 HP and expecially if it will see track duty.

Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:54 pm

Received my flanged bugpack crank and flywheel today.

SWEET!

Might take my Al case to the machine shop Saturday to have them perform the needed machine work on the case to accept the crank.

Only thing left to purchase is the rods, P & C's.

Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:11 pm

i'm having trouble getting a clutch setup for my bp flanged crank...any disc i've tried has interference between the fly wheel bolts and the rivets holding the disc together.bugpack says take the flywheel to a machine shop and sink the bolts deeper...doesn't leave much flywheel thickness left.if i was to do it again i would go with wedgemating.my case is now opened out for type4 center main and big seal,so there's no going back.take your new crank and bolt the flywheel to it and try to fit a clutch in it.if it's like mine you'll have a problem with it;maybe they make them different now than when i got mine.do this before you have machine work done on the case.if i'm wrong,great,but check it out before you go too far...mike

Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:50 am

Keep in mind when using a flanged crank on a streetcar that the lack of endplay shims causes much more wear to the thrust surface of the bearing when the clutch is depressed. You'll need to NOT hold the clutch down whenever possible to avoid more wear,increasing your endplay. Every time you press the clutch, it is driving the flywheel into the surface of the thrust bearing, with no shims to help even out the wear. As for the added hassle of removing a wedgemated flywheel- just buy a flywheel puller from Ron Lummas for $150.00. The tool works awesome! It pulls the flywheel off like it's made of butter. WAY cheaper than Flanged cranks, and you still have your endplay shims.
Paul

Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:52 am

Paul:

I do not intend on running my flanged crank on the street, just drag, but, is there that much wear? Chevys, Fords, Mopars, Pontiac and others have thrust surfaces for their cranks and they run 4 speeds with no shims. I ran a 2800 pound Center Force PP on my 455 Pontiac for a few years and never received any measurable wear of the thrust endplay. Is the VW front bearing that much differant than Clevite bearing material that it would wear so rapidly?

Never thought about the "no shims needed" aspect when I purchased this crank.

Mike:

Checked my bolt situation and I have two 4 puck disks I will run. One 4 puck rivits hit the bolts, the other does not. The one that does not has about 0.075 inch clearence. I purchased both 4 pucks used, (from two differant sources where they installed on street car and hated the result, then sold with little wear) so I need to try and determine what brand does not hit the bolts so I can get more from them. Thanks for the tip!!!

Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:18 pm

The bolts and/or rivets need to be machined down some or both to clear each other. Otherwise, there will be partial clutch disk engagement.

This is the part of racing engine building that trully makes it a specialty, fitting the parts together. Access to a machine shop close by will make it easier. Or better still, it is more worthwhile to just put some in the garage if you will be doing this for some time. :D

There is always something to cut down or grind.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:45 pm

Interesting reading!!
I recently purchased Scats 86mm flanged crank/flywheel combo,
They did supply all bearings/seal that are needed(type4 cm)
I have a little better idea of some things to check out, or be prepared to rework.......!

Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:03 pm

great stuff! so flanged cranks don't use shims for endplay? how do you set endplay with a flanged crank? without flywheel shims clutch pedal force places pressure directly on thrust bearing reducing its life span?
there's a good chance of clutch disc to flywheel bolt interfearance? this is starting to sound like not a good option for a street motor.