| Author |
Message |
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Hi Performance 1641 Single Port top-end Rebuild |
 |
|
Hey guys, I just wanted to share my most recent completed build.
This build was inspired by an old article that i read about a 1500 single port back in the late 60's/early 70's. They got over 100hp on a 1500 sp with ALL BOLT ON'S and without splitting the case. I figured if it were possible back then, i might be able to come close now without jacking up the compression and using a 1600 instead.
The engine is now complete and in the car and its very quick but to be honest the amount of money i invested in highest quality of everything for a 1641, i could have easily put together a different sized engine and gotten the same if not better performance. It's a great engine and has lots of highway power but i don't think the power increase is worth the money i put into it.
Here is the motor before:
Short block:
After a little cleaning and installing the spin on oil pump and filter:
Comparing the old heads to the new heads. The new heads were rebuilt and ported by Brothers VW. This I feel is what made the most HP improvement. D-ports.... welded..... the port job on these is phenomenal. I wish i had some better pictures of inside the heads to show the job they did.
To be continued.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
buggpower
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2006
Posts: 928
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
millerje78
Samba Amishman
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posts: 2445
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
it is has been said that stock dual port heads will outflow a set of ported single port heads. I refuse to believe that a stock headed dual port 1600 would be able to outrun a 1600 single port with those nicely ported single port heads. Probably a snappy little thing with amazing throttle response. I would love to drive it! a sweet little set-up you have there.
may I ask what you spent on those heads, OP? are they stock valved?
_________________
always seeking a better way
my 73 standard project
do your research, consult with experts, and buy quality parts. you won't be sorry |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| buggpower wrote: |
| about how much quicker than stock would you say it is?Would making it a Dual Port , make it faster? |
Well.... keeping in mind it is winter right now any any carbureted car is going to run like hell because it has averaged about 15 degrees for the past 3 months. Also keeping in mind the swing for the carbs is much more than a stock carb is and my gas pedal is screwed up so i still have about 1" left of swing AT THE LINKAGE before I can get it to full throttle. Needless to say, I have yet to see its full potential.
It is a lot quicker than many stock cars i have driven. Also keeping in mind it went in a 67' which came stock with the free way flier gears. I was easily able to top the speedo out before i rebuilt the engine. Right now the only noticeable gains i have seen are on take off. I can spin the tires effortlessly and the gas mileage is only a hair worse than it was before.
If i made it a dual port i highly doubt it would be quicker. For one i would be spending MUCH more money on the heads. The port job that Brothers did was about as large as you can go with single ports. They would probably be good up to about 1900-2000cc's.
If you take a look at this chart which i borrowed from another post which i believe got from a website (thanks!) it shows there really isn't much of a HP gain from DP to SP. I have also experienced much better pulling at higher speeds and up hills with single ports. It's kind of give and take where you want your HP to be. Don't quote me on this being proven but i have personally found that the DP's have great pulling power up to about 60 but if you want to pass someone you have to drop into 3rd. On SP's I've found that 60 is where its got some really good power. I could be cruising at 75, need to pass someone... put the pedal down an inch and gain an easy 10 mph in a short period of time.
As for this engine I built, i wanted it to be great on the highway which it is AMAZING at. Its not made for the track, its not made to impress kids by doing burn outs. I even used the stock pressure plate on it.
For my uses, until i go large displacement wise im going to stick to single ports. When i want to build over 1800cc's..... then I'll go DP.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| millerje78 wrote: |
it is has been said that stock dual port heads will outflow a set of ported single port heads. I refuse to believe that a stock headed dual port 1600 would be able to outrun a 1600 single port with those nicely ported single port heads. Probably a snappy little thing with amazing throttle response. I would love to drive it! a sweet little set-up you have there.
may I ask what you spent on those heads, OP? are they stock valved? |
Outflow...... meh... that is something that could be easily proven on a flow bench which i don't have access to but.... maybe someone else does?
I think at this point, being a smaller engine its how much flow the engine could use rather than how much can we throw at it.
Though i can guarantee this car will outrun a 1641 with stock heads and dual 34's because me and my father tested it out with his sand rail which has the same set up minus the port job and the lightened flywheel. His (maybe) 800lbs car lagged about a 1-1/2 car lengths down our street which is about 1/4 mile or so. There might be some variables in there that I'm not looking at and our carbs might have been adjusted differently but it still happened. True story.
Corey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| millerje78 wrote: |
it is has been said that stock dual port heads will outflow a set of ported single port heads. I refuse to believe that a stock headed dual port 1600 would be able to outrun a 1600 single port with those nicely ported single port heads. Probably a snappy little thing with amazing throttle response. I would love to drive it! a sweet little set-up you have there.
may I ask what you spent on those heads, OP? are they stock valved? |
Oh sorry, i forgot to answer your other questions. I spent about $495 on the heads and the valves are 37mmX32. Totally rebuilt, with SS valves ported/welded. That's pretty damned good considering a new set of DP's with the same specs and not ported are about $450.
Corey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
millerje78
Samba Amishman
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posts: 2445
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BelialConsummation wrote: |
| millerje78 wrote: |
it is has been said that stock dual port heads will outflow a set of ported single port heads. I refuse to believe that a stock headed dual port 1600 would be able to outrun a 1600 single port with those nicely ported single port heads. Probably a snappy little thing with amazing throttle response. I would love to drive it! a sweet little set-up you have there.
may I ask what you spent on those heads, OP? are they stock valved? |
Oh sorry, i forgot to answer your other questions. I spent about $495 on the heads and the valves are 37mmX32. Totally rebuilt, with SS valves ported/welded. That's pretty damned good considering a new set of DP's with the same specs and not ported are about $450.
Corey |
great deal on the heads. for some reason, I think that exhaust valve is too small. 
_________________
always seeking a better way
my 73 standard project
do your research, consult with experts, and buy quality parts. you won't be sorry |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| millerje78 wrote: |
| BelialConsummation wrote: |
| millerje78 wrote: |
it is has been said that stock dual port heads will outflow a set of ported single port heads. I refuse to believe that a stock headed dual port 1600 would be able to outrun a 1600 single port with those nicely ported single port heads. Probably a snappy little thing with amazing throttle response. I would love to drive it! a sweet little set-up you have there.
may I ask what you spent on those heads, OP? are they stock valved? |
Oh sorry, i forgot to answer your other questions. I spent about $495 on the heads and the valves are 37mmX32. Totally rebuilt, with SS valves ported/welded. That's pretty damned good considering a new set of DP's with the same specs and not ported are about $450.
Corey |
great deal on the heads. for some reason, I think that exhaust valve is too small. |
Well keep in mind I didn't split the case. This is a totally stock bottom end, cam and all. I'm also using a stock exhaust with a zoom tube so not much is really needed. If i was going to go closer to 1800 i would need larger exhaust valves.... but a 1641... stock cam.... nawwww.
Corey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jubibug
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
what brand of filter oil pump do you use
and what exhaust? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jubibug wrote: |
what brand of filter oil pump do you use
and what exhaust? |
That oil filter was just the one for break in. I got it at Jc Whitney i think... or maybe even pep boys. If you buy through pep boys or auto zone just tell them you have a 78' beetle which i believe came stock with spin on filters. The exhaust is just stock with j-tubes and a zoom tube.
I know i could get much more power from using a 1-5/8 merged header but i just dig the nostalgia of the zoom tubes.
Corey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A true aircooled vw enthusiast works on his cars without shoes on.....
And the final product....
And its going in this awesome fucking 67'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15598
Location: Deep in the 405
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Performance 1641 Single Port top-end Rebuild |
|
|
| BelialConsummation wrote: |
| It's a great engine and has lots of highway power but i don't think the power increase is worth the money i put into it. |
I've been preaching this about "bolt on" stuff for years.
It does look nice.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Performance 1641 Single Port top-end Rebuild |
|
|
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| BelialConsummation wrote: |
| It's a great engine and has lots of highway power but i don't think the power increase is worth the money i put into it. |
I've been preaching this about "bolt on" stuff for years.
It does look nice. |
Well... ya know I just did the top end because this car is my daily driver 80% of the year and i didn't want it out of commission too long. After all was said and done i had the engine out of the car for about 3 months which is two and a half months longer than planned. If i had known that i would've split the case put a new cam in it along with machining out for a set of 94's. With the cam, lifters, bearings, P&C kit and a set of average heads i probably would've had about $1k in it.
But me being..... me. If i was going to do the engine i was going to do EVERYTHING with the best i could buy. Keeping in mine absolutely everything from the short block up was brand new except the oil cooler i spent about $2200 on it. The mechanical parts cost about $1400, the rest was for the beauty.
I don't regret the building the engine but would i spend that much in a 1641 again? Probably not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jubibug
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
wow! that engine really looks nice!
two more questions: are these kadron carbs and what linkage do you use?
did you clean your shortblock only with brake cleaner?
i really would like to build a single port engine similar like this, but unfortunally it's a difficult (and expensive) procedure to get a "aftermarket peformance engine" legal on the street over here in germany, when your your car is build after 1971.
cheers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jubibug wrote: |
wow! that engine really looks nice!
two more questions: are these kadron carbs and what linkage do you use?
did you clean your shortblock only with brake cleaner?
i really would like to build a single port engine similar like this, but unfortunally it's a difficult (and expensive) procedure to get a "aftermarket peformance engine" legal on the street over here in germany, when your your car is build after 1971.
cheers |
These a dual Weber 34's that have port matched manifolds to the heads. I used the stock linkage that came with them. To my understanding the 34's have more power than the Kadrons and are also a bit cheaper though the Kadrons are offered with electric chokes as the 34's have none. Yes the only cleaner i used on the short block was brake clean. I used probably close to 15 cans of it but it works more effectively than anything else i have tried. I also have another build going on right now that is very similar to this one though im not going to be putting as many performance mods on it. I will be updating this one as im going along rather than putting it up after i have finished like i did this build.
You can check that one out here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=343958&highlight=
This one is MUCH more ugly than the previous one ever was though i am VERY confident that it will turn out just as nice. I used about 4 cans of brake clean on the case last weekend and managed to get 80% of the paint and grim off so far.
Corey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sbnova
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005
Posts: 741
Location: Lakeland,FL
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kingodirtp3
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2007
Posts: 1062
Location: Monterey CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| i'm glad someone else did this. i have a 1600sp in my 67 bus with a 4.35 tranny and straight axle kit. i got the header with single quiet pac and SVDA dizzy and weber ICT 34s already. i'll try to get 1.4 ratio rockers in the next couple months, maybe for my birthday in may. to do the 1.4 rockers i'll have to have hd springs installed so i might as well get the heads ported a little. when the time somes i'll try to send the heads to the same guy the original posted sent his to to get worked over. a bus really needs the low end torque of a single port. if i have to split the case then i'll bump it up to 1914, if i have to replace the crank then a 76mm will go in. thnaks for the info. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BelialConsummation
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kingodirtp3 wrote: |
| i'm glad someone else did this. i have a 1600sp in my 67 bus with a 4.35 tranny and straight axle kit. i got the header with single quiet pac and SVDA dizzy and weber ICT 34s already. i'll try to get 1.4 ratio rockers in the next couple months, maybe for my birthday in may. to do the 1.4 rockers i'll have to have hd springs installed so i might as well get the heads ported a little. when the time somes i'll try to send the heads to the same guy the original posted sent his to to get worked over. a bus really needs the low end torque of a single port. if i have to split the case then i'll bump it up to 1914, if i have to replace the crank then a 76mm will go in. thnaks for the info. |
My suggestion would be to split the case and go 76 on the crank. The 1.4's wont work too well with a stock cam, im not even sure if it will work at all to be honest. My rocker knowledge is pretty basic.
Have the case machined to accept 88mm machine in pistons because they have the thickest cylinder walls and will take the abuse of a bus a lot better. If you do that have the heads posted as much as possible without sacrificing too much metal. This will push your bus along just as much as it needs without making a crap-ton of power and still having enough original metal to keep the case nice and strong.
Just my 2 cents, I'm building an engine like this for my 66' bus and it took me some time to find this info. Everyone said "if your machining it out why not go 90.5 or 94" I finally got the info that Mr. Berg had been using this set up for ages in buses because of the durability of it and it all seemed to make sense.
Corey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MO Turbo Manx
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: St. Louis, MO
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kingodirtp3 wrote: |
| i'm glad someone else did this. i have a 1600sp in my 67 bus with a 4.35 tranny and straight axle kit. i got the header with single quiet pac and SVDA dizzy and weber ICT 34s already. i'll try to get 1.4 ratio rockers in the next couple months, maybe for my birthday in may. to do the 1.4 rockers i'll have to have hd springs installed so i might as well get the heads ported a little. when the time somes i'll try to send the heads to the same guy the original posted sent his to to get worked over. a bus really needs the low end torque of a single port. if i have to split the case then i'll bump it up to 1914, if i have to replace the crank then a 76mm will go in. thnaks for the info. |
Here's my ongoing saga of turbo-ing a 1600 single port:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=271444
Just goes to show just how durable they are AND they're amazing potential.
Rockers and Springs:
I have used 1.25's and single hi-rev's with my stock cam for almost 2 years of incessant abuse with zero failures and nothing but good to report. Bolt-together rocker shafts are a great idea, too.
Porting:
Do you have a high-speed air grinder?
Put a long shank christmas tree burr on it and take your time.
I ported mine concentrating on eliminating sharp edges from below the seat into the port....trust me, singles need all the help they can get in that area-VERY jagged edges! Mine are far from as nice as the fella who started this thread but the work I did made a monsterous improvement in power and torque.
Haven't had it back to the dyno yet but I plan to as soon as the weather breaks to confirm the improvement.
Singles Rule!! 
Springs? Single Hi-Revs
_________________
Manx-copy
1600 single port turbo
154HP and 180TQ AND STILL CLIMBING when the turbo thrust bearing let go:
http://s456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/MOTurboManx/?action=view¤t=Smoke.flv
[email protected], Nov. '08 at 141HP! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
