Author |
Message |
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:20 pm Post subject: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Hello all, first time poster, long time viewer.
I have slowly but surely been getting my 01/73 SB into running order, and have hit an roadblock that I can't seem to figure out regarding the horn.
Per photo 1, the wiring for the 1973 shows the ground going to the horn and the live wire (I think) going to the T leading to the dual circuit system on the master cylinder.
Photo 2 is for 1972, but shows is better and I marked it up for ease.
The ground is grounded out to the steering column, and the live wire goes to the T in my SB, and then to the dual circuit. But there seems to be no power getting to the horn. I have tried touching the live wire to the frame to see if it sparks (it doesn't).
The Horn itself works, as I tested it with some leads and the battery, and it does honk.
I replaced the master cylinder a year ago, but the horn did not work before that repair either. The brake warning light turns on with the key in the ignition, but I haven't turned the vehicle over since I got the light to work, so I do not know if it will turn off, which (if I am correct) would help me diagnose if the dual circuits are messed up.
The horn pad is separate from the steering wheel at the moment, and I replaced the turn signal switch lever when I was diagnosing my turn signals with a new one from Jbugs (which does look slightly different with the protruding brass contact being longer on the old one) but that is the only thing in that column that has changed. (https://www.jbugs.com/product/111953513F.html) And it doesn't really explain why there isn't power to the live wire. (Or does it?)
So I am at a loss, and am running out of ideas on what to do next. Any suggestions? Could the dual circuit switched on the master cylinder be backwards or shot? What am I missing?
Thanks! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22729 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Are the brake lights working?
Stupid question, but you are aware that the horn and brake lights are only powered with the key in the "run" position, correct? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22440 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Tram wrote: |
Are the brake lights working?
Stupid question, but you are aware that the horn and brake lights are only powered with the key in the "run" position, correct? |
That's what I was going to ask...key on? _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
To answer both your questions. All lights, including brake lights, currently work on the vehicle (save the dome light). And I have tried with both the key turned to accessories and to run, and same result of nothing.
Edit: I have also checked for power while the vehicle is idling, and the same result has occurred of nothing. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22729 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:25 am Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
JaxyWxy wrote: |
To answer both your questions. All lights, including brake lights, currently work on the vehicle (save the dome light). And I have tried with both the key turned to accessories and to run, and same result of nothing.
Edit: I have also checked for power while the vehicle is idling, and the same result has occurred of nothing. |
If the brake lights work, and the horn works when you apply 12 volts independently, then the problem has to be in the wire highlighted in purple above, the black wire with yellow tracer from the connector T3 to the horn. Maybe the wire slipped out of the connector? If memory serves the T3 should be in the front luggage area. I've seen those connectors corrode and stop conducting, and I have seen the wiring get a little frayed and exposed right at the crimped connector, turn blackish brown, and also stop conducting. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22440 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Tram wrote: |
I've seen those connectors corrode and stop conducting, and I have seen the wiring get a little frayed and exposed right at the crimped connector, turn blackish brown, and also stop conducting. |
And I thought I was the only one who gets that "dumb luck" kind of failures. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Pictures of the connector and the terminal for the yellow dashed wire that goes to the horn before I gave them a quick clean. They were in pretty good condition.
I also cleaned up the horn terminals, and unfortunately there still doesn't seem to be power getting to the hot wire, nor the horn.
And I certainly feel that sentiment Bobnotch! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22729 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Do you have power TO that horn wire? Seems you should as the horn and brake lights pull from the same fusebox terminal but maybe someone moved a wire. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22440 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Good point Tram, we all know how PO's like to change the wiring in these cars to"fix something" even if the fix doesn't fix it or causes another problem. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
To clarify, do you mean at the connector or at the distal end of the wire on the horn itself?
The latter has no power, but I have not tested the former. I will give that a shot tomorrow or this weekend and see. Looking at the schematics, there is a black line that meets up with the yellow stripped line that goes to the connector. From what I remember, the line should be connected to the fusebox, but the type 3 rats nest is a whole other beast...
At this point I am not certain about how the current flows in this system either.
I know the PO had attempted to put a radio and two speakers into the car, and that wiring has baffled me, as well as a electric windshield spray motor, but that is disconnected.
We all know the PO wiring horror stories, and unfortunately this SB is no exception. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Good afternoon folks,]
Verdict is in that I am not getting power on the line that connects to the yellow wire going to the horn. It looks like that could be the issue here, though it is still odd that both brake lights and flashers work...
What are your thoughts on next steps? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
djfordmanjack Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2009 Posts: 2180 Location: Graz, Austria, Europe
|
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
I am not sure how things are hooked up on a 73, but usually ground is transferred to the (insulated) steering column, when the horn button is pushed. The horn wire is inside the steering shaft and grounded to the Hardy disc (rubber clutch) between steering shaft and steering gear. it is usually that connector that gets corroded badly and wont get good ground when pushed.
If your black/Yellow wire doesn't provide 12 V at horn, you need to check the wire and connectors.
I just repaired the horn in my 63 notch yesterday and it was all because of corroded terminals and connectors at the steering shaft.
worst case try lining a hot wire from the battery to the horn and see what it does. I strongly suspect the ground wires at fault. _________________ Hotrods, Fords, Veedubs and Triumph Twins !
52 Barndoor DLX Coachbuild project
55 Wolfsburg panel project, og paint Taubenblau L31
62 Dickholmer, custom color Seeblau L360
63 1500 Notch, og paint Rubin Rot L456
67 1500 Käfer, og paint Lotus weiß L282 w/red interior |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22440 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
JaxyWxy wrote: |
Good afternoon folks,]
Verdict is in that I am not getting power on the line that connects to the yellow wire going to the horn. It looks like that could be the issue here, though it is still odd that both brake lights and flashers work...
What are your thoughts on next steps? |
You might want to put that connection back together, and try again with the voltmeter. Also back trace that wire to the fuse box and check/spin the fuse to make sure voltage is passing thru it. I don't know how clean the ends of your fuses are, but sometimes they get a little crud on them and won't pass voltage thru them. I don't know how many times I've fixed a dead light just by spinning the fuse. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
djfordmanjack wrote: |
I am not sure how things are hooked up on a 73, but usually ground is transferred to the (insulated) steering column, when the horn button is pushed. The horn wire is inside the steering shaft and grounded to the Hardy disc (rubber clutch) between steering shaft and steering gear. it is usually that connector that gets corroded badly and wont get good ground when pushed.
If your black/Yellow wire doesn't provide 12 V at horn, you need to check the wire and connectors.
I just repaired the horn in my 63 notch yesterday and it was all because of corroded terminals and connectors at the steering shaft.
worst case try lining a hot wire from the battery to the horn and see what it does. I strongly suspect the ground wires at fault. |
I checked all the connections again, removed all the dashboard instruments, and followed all the wires from the steering column. From that perspective, it seems like things are looking good and are surprisingly in their place.
You mention the black/yellow wires, would it make sense to follow to the dual circuit on the master cylinder? See if the wires are pinched or separated? The wire in this SB goes directly into the horn pad on this one. Realistically, I should be able to hold the wire against the metal of the steering wheel and it would complete the circuit, but that hasn't done the trick.
I have replaced and cleaned the fuses and almost every wire/connector on the box, I will certainly try the old twist trick and see if it will help at all. Any voodoo magic to solve this problem is welcomed at this point. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
djfordmanjack Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2009 Posts: 2180 Location: Graz, Austria, Europe
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22440 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:17 am Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
This is starting to sound like a ground issue in the steering column head. I know for 73 VW moved the power and ground wires to outside of the column head (the white push on connector at the base of the unit). You might want to test the wires at that connection, along with those coming from that connection per the wiring diagram. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Bobnotch wrote: |
This is starting to sound like a ground issue in the steering column head. I know for 73 VW moved the power and ground wires to outside of the column head (the white push on connector at the base of the unit). You might want to test the wires at that connection, along with those coming from that connection per the wiring diagram. |
I suspect you and djfordmanjack are right, I tried to direct wire the power from the horn to the battery, and no luck.
I followed all 3 brown wires from the steering column. (1. goes to the speedmeter gauge 2. goes to the dimmer relay 3. goes to a triple connector, which connects to another brown wire that goes through the wiring loom towards the horn). Per the wiring diagram #3 is supposed to go to a single connector and then back to the horn.
I will post pictures of the steering wheel and such when I get a minute this weekend. What I would suspect that there is an issue between the column and the steering wheel, but I am not certain if a part is missing or not... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22440 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
JaxyWxy wrote: |
Bobnotch wrote: |
This is starting to sound like a ground issue in the steering column head. I know for 73 VW moved the power and ground wires to outside of the column head (the white push on connector at the base of the unit). You might want to test the wires at that connection, along with those coming from that connection per the wiring diagram. |
I suspect you and djfordmanjack are right, I tried to direct wire the power from the horn to the battery, and no luck.
I followed all 3 brown wires from the steering column. (1. goes to the speedmeter gauge 2. goes to the dimmer relay 3. goes to a triple connector, which connects to another brown wire that goes through the wiring loom towards the horn). Per the wiring diagram #3 is supposed to go to a single connector and then back to the horn.
I will post pictures of the steering wheel and such when I get a minute this weekend. What I would suspect that there is an issue between the column and the steering wheel, but I am not certain if a part is missing or not... |
At this moment I don't know if anything is missing. It could very well be the brass ring under the steering wheel (bottom of it) got worn thru (common) and snagged once and the PO removed it. That brass ring operates the horn. Note; this is a part that started with 71 models. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
JaxyWxy Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2024 Posts: 9 Location: CO
|
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
Alright, canceling ring certainly looks a little worn in spots. I'll order a new one to see if that helps at all. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22440 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:49 am Post subject: Re: 1973 SB Horn not getting power |
|
|
What does the 2 finger wiper that rubs against it look like? Is it even still there? Or does it have holes worn thru it? _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|