Can you install a 34 carb on a Type 3 right out of the box?

[RodneyW]

I have read enough posts to feel like this is a worthy thread to have for folks who follow in my footsteps. I have a '71 Fastback. Lot find. 1600 with no particular modifications besides the progressive carb and '009 replacing the standard FI.

I bought the EMPI 34 carb to replace the progressive. I did the physical install and then took it to my VW guy to get the synch and timing down. I trusted myself to bolt it into place but figured a guy who has worked on these cars for decades should do the delicate work.

He has had a bear of a time getting it zoned in. At idle 1 & 2 barely fired. As I have read in plenty of posts, that is not so unusual. The EMPI does not come with a balance tube, so he drilled one and that helped with cylinders 1 & 2. But he is still having trouble getting it to accelerate smoothly at moderate RPMs. At idle it is fine. It handles hard acceleration fine. But it hesitates so badly at a simple shift between say second and third at 25 MPH that he doesn't feel like it is safe to give it back to me. Compression is strong and he has re-checked every inch of the ignition system. We are now moving on to jets.

Here are the questions I want to tease out in this thread. Can you install a 34 carb straight out of the box without significant tinkering?

Is anyone out there running EMPI 34s without a balance tube?

Is anyone out there running EMPI 34s with the original jets?

I know the Weber 34 comes with a balance tube. Is anyone out there running with the original jets that came with the Weber 34s?

If you think my problems are typical, then that should serve as a warning for others looking to go the same route. If the Weber really is that much closer to road ready out of the box, then that should clearly set folks up to better understand the difference between the two (so much more so than 'Chinese crap').
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(1) No matter what the world brings, I am never anything but happy driving my Ghia.

(2) The Fastback is running, rolling and, especially important, stopping. Interior is done. Driving more often; commuting on occasion. Dreaming of paint.

'71 Bahia Red Karmann Ghia Coupe
'71 Marina Blue Type 3 Fastback
'03 Reflex Silver Passat Wagon (sold but still in the family)

[blankmange]

I ran Weber ICT 34's on both my 1600 and 1776 with a balance tube and with the jets that came in them outta the box...

that being said, they were never smooth in the transition from idle to full speed; they always seemed like they were loading up the engine...

that and the inability to run the stock oil-bath air filter (for cool air intake vs pre-heated air) convinced me to install the custom Solex's I have now....
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póg mo thóin

Certified DHS Technician

Samba Member # 24517

[RodneyW]

Blankmange, my friend, let the record show that I am holding back the urge to post the photo of your old set up with the Molotovs and ask "you mean these?"

Thank you sir.
_________________
(1) No matter what the world brings, I am never anything but happy driving my Ghia.

(2) The Fastback is running, rolling and, especially important, stopping. Interior is done. Driving more often; commuting on occasion. Dreaming of paint.

'71 Bahia Red Karmann Ghia Coupe
'71 Marina Blue Type 3 Fastback
'03 Reflex Silver Passat Wagon (sold but still in the family)

[Bobnotch]

I've had (still have 1 set) 2 sets of CB Performance Weber 34 ICTs. Those carbs ran great right out of the box (jetted correctly). My son has my old set on his car, that other than setting the snych, I never touched again. They were right, right out of the box. Got 26 to 27 mpg on the highway, and around 22 in the city. My other set was the same way. I still have them, and might use them again sometime.

I did install a set of those empi 34's before, and they are just pure crap compared to the CB version. No balance tube (man they just wouldn't tune), so that got added, jetting is wrong (where do you find jets for them?), linkage was crap too. I spent a full day trying to get them to run decent, and NEVER got them good or right. Fortunately, it wasn't my car, and I told the owner he needed to spend some more money and either find some jets, or a different set of carbs. Note, I've had less trouble tuning with single throat Dellorto's, or even old brazilian Webers than I had with those chinese crap empis. :fist: They are just junk. And combine it with an 009, you're jusk asking for more troubles trying to tune them. At least with the CB's, you can run either distributor with them, and it'll run good (I had an SVDA, while my son uses an 009 on his).
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[Bobnotch]

[blankmange]

[mxracer]

I had the EMPI 34's on my square before I rebuilt the engine.

My personal experience.... yes, you have to run a balance tube or it won't idle for shit. I tried.

You will also have to re-jet the carbs. It's been a while but if I remember right they were rich out of the box. It ran with the jets that came in them but not well. Also you will have to adjust the floats, they weren't even close.

I will say once I re-jetted them they ran fine. No flat spots or hesitation. Since I've sold them and installed them on another stock 1600 in a type 3 and they ran well there too. You have to mess with them to get them right.

[RodneyW]

Appreciate the feedback. Here is where I found jets.

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/

I did talk to the folks where I bought them, and they said we should double check the timing. It needs to be 28 to 32 degrees before top dead center at 2500 RPM (or that was their strong recommendation).

Maybe someone searching posts about the EMPIs shoud see this as a BLACK BOX WARNING: if you buy it, you will be drilling the manifold for a balance tube and you will likely be buying new jets. Neither of those are particularly expensive ... unless you are paying someone else to do it.
_________________
(1) No matter what the world brings, I am never anything but happy driving my Ghia.

(2) The Fastback is running, rolling and, especially important, stopping. Interior is done. Driving more often; commuting on occasion. Dreaming of paint.

'71 Bahia Red Karmann Ghia Coupe
'71 Marina Blue Type 3 Fastback
'03 Reflex Silver Passat Wagon (sold but still in the family)

[Bobnotch]

[Rome]

Bob, CB's 34 Solex kits are available only for the Type 1's "tall" manifolds, or the type 4's wide manifolds. For your Type 3, do you use the factory original "low" manifolds with the CB carbs? If so, do the factory manifolds need any modification, such as increasing the distance between the mounting holes on the carb flange?

[Bobnotch]

[Rome]

Oh... i lost track- thanks for the clarification!

[Mike Fisher]

It looks to me like www.aircooled.net is a good place for advice/parts for new/used 34's.
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https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[RodneyW]

Appreciate the responses. Thanks a ton Mike for the link to aircooled.net. I also looked at the jetting chart on CB Performance. This has been an enlightening experience. Setting up your carbs after you have them on really is an art involving trial and error. The balance tube is really something all retailers selling the EMPI should make clear. But even then, you could end up playing around with the jets on the Webers as well.

Much to be learned. Every day.
_________________
(1) No matter what the world brings, I am never anything but happy driving my Ghia.

(2) The Fastback is running, rolling and, especially important, stopping. Interior is done. Driving more often; commuting on occasion. Dreaming of paint.

'71 Bahia Red Karmann Ghia Coupe
'71 Marina Blue Type 3 Fastback
'03 Reflex Silver Passat Wagon (sold but still in the family)

[Erik G]

for what it's worth, I too had the weber 34 ict's on my stock 1600 squareback. no problem out of the box, although the small hex bar linkage wasnt the greatest. On my notch, I had a set of 34 dells that just flat out kicked ass. better linkage, and to me just a great smooth carb. Dialed it in, even with my 009, and never had to mess with them really

Where did you buy the empi's? did they give you any advice?
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Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[RodneyW]

I won't call out the specific retailer. They have been helpful. They suggested a balance tube. I did go back and look closely at the instructions I received. No mention of a balance tube (the Weber instructions I now know are VERY clear about the balance tube being necessary). One minor irony ... they don't sell jets for the carbs they sold me in case re-jetting is necessary which I am not finding anyone who ran well with the original jets.

This website really caught my attention. The jets are quite cheap, you just need to anticipate needing them. I started this thread so that perhaps people looking at the same carbs will learn what faces them.

http://www.cbperformance.com/carbs.asp#carburetor

For sport, I did surf the internet for a few minutes and found all of these retailer descriptions of the EMPI 34 EPCs. No mentions a balance tube or re-jetting.

This kit is perfectly dialed in for a dual port 1500cc-1600cc VW Engines.

It is your responsibility to guarantee the cleanliness of your fuel system. This is the only reason you will ever have a problem with a new carburetor.

KITS Are a Dependable performance and economical dual carb. kit.

Dual 34mm carburetors are very popular and are an economical replacement when it comes to removing old fuel injection or trying to get some added horsepower to a mild motor.

If improving performance without sacrificing fuel economy is your desire then EMPI EPC 34 Dual Kits are the way to go.

Dual 34 EPC Empi Carb kit. Same kit as the Weber 34 ICT's. This set is for Dual Port. (Single Port and other kits available under carb kit catagory) These carbs come complete with manifolds, carbs, air cleaners, linkage, gaskets and hardware. These carbs also take all the same jets and parts as the weber ICT's. Get a kit before they are gone.

All Empi EPC 34 kits feature aluminum alloy hex bar with steel ball ends, Sealed aircraft heim rod ends, High flow aluminum intake manifolds, Thick high strength steel linkage mounts, Gauze high flow air cleaner assemblies, Coil relocation mount, Brass fuel tee, Detailed and illustrated instructions.
_________________
(1) No matter what the world brings, I am never anything but happy driving my Ghia.

(2) The Fastback is running, rolling and, especially important, stopping. Interior is done. Driving more often; commuting on occasion. Dreaming of paint.

'71 Bahia Red Karmann Ghia Coupe
'71 Marina Blue Type 3 Fastback
'03 Reflex Silver Passat Wagon (sold but still in the family)

[Mike Fisher]

I assume everybody found John's Technical Articles on Webers!

http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/jetting.htm
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[RodneyW]

I'll excerpt the first three paragraphs because it is so valuable. Learn. I wish I had.

After spending $500+ for a set of carburetors, some people are content to bolt them on, and seem "pleased" with the results. Others are upset by a backfiring, or smoke belching monster. In either case, spending the time to properly jet a set of dual (or single) carburetors is a very worthwhile task, since recieving a "perfect out-of-the-box" carburetors is one of the biggest myths in the VW industry!

For emissions and power, the engine has to have a certain amount of VAPORIZED fuel (liquid fuel doesn't burn) for a certain amount of air. The carburetor is designed to meter out a mixture of air and fuel in a form that can be burned quickly and completely by the engine. This is rarely done properly! For complete combustion, the air/fuel mixture must be supplied in a VAPOR, and not with liquid droplets (remember, liquid fuel won't burn). So, besides metering how much fuel the engine gets, the carburetor is also responsible to atomize the fuel and mix it with the air entering the engine.

In addition, proper jetting is different depending on the size engine, elevation, cam overlap, etc. I have even seen the SAME engine combination require different jetting (same carbs) on two different engines! So, for someone to say "this is what you need" is ridiculous. They can get you CLOSE, but not exact. To get exact you need to spend time and patience, and dial it in. It IS worth it too!
_________________
(1) No matter what the world brings, I am never anything but happy driving my Ghia.

(2) The Fastback is running, rolling and, especially important, stopping. Interior is done. Driving more often; commuting on occasion. Dreaming of paint.

'71 Bahia Red Karmann Ghia Coupe
'71 Marina Blue Type 3 Fastback
'03 Reflex Silver Passat Wagon (sold but still in the family)

[mxracer]

Just a tip on the jets... I found the cheapest place for jets was weberdirect.

http://www.webercarbsdirect.com/Weber_Service_Parts_s/45.htm

If you just want to buy weber (or empi) jets they seems to have the best price. If you want some support to go with the jets I'd suggest aircooled.net. John is mostly always here and happy to help.

[RodneyW]

Thanks for the suggestion. My idle out of the box was 55 and main was 127.5.
_________________
(1) No matter what the world brings, I am never anything but happy driving my Ghia.

(2) The Fastback is running, rolling and, especially important, stopping. Interior is done. Driving more often; commuting on occasion. Dreaming of paint.

'71 Bahia Red Karmann Ghia Coupe
'71 Marina Blue Type 3 Fastback
'03 Reflex Silver Passat Wagon (sold but still in the family)