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imz8478 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2010 Posts: 188 Location: NC
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: Type 3 engine build help |
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Okay someone gave me advice to come here to ask for help on building an 1835 engine for my 1971 Fastback. I have a stock AS21 case and want to know what to do about building that engine. I would like to know from the pros of The Samba. Thanks. All ideas an tips will be greatly appreciated. |
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OLD VW NUT Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2011 Posts: 2776 Location: High Desert of Washington 98823
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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OK - so how much money do you plan on spending on this build? _________________ 71 Ghia Coupe - stock body - no rust! Powered by a 2110 W/Dual HPMX 44's - Rancho Pro Street Transaxle - A/C by Gilmore
Other car - 2013 VW Golf TDI |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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And what are you using your Fasty for? Daily driver? Weekend street stomper? Street/strip? Strip/street? Is fuel economy a factor or you just want more power? _________________
Mitey62 wrote: |
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I'll give the first tip - don't build an 1835cc. You are going to have to machine the case and heads anyway, so go for 1775 or 1915. 90.5 will run cooler, which is important for a type 3, and it will be easier to get your compression down to a reasonable level.
Be conservative with your cam - maybe a cheater or "fuel-efficient series" as the type 3 is fairly heavy and won't fit huge carbs.
A 1775 with compression around 8:1, stock-type heads, a cheater cam and extractors can be a lot more pleasant to drive than stock. An "SVDA" is worth the extra money, too.
From there you will start spending the big bucks. |
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imz8478 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2010 Posts: 188 Location: NC
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Okay cool this helps. I have a AS21 stock case. So should I just get a new case or stick with this and rebuild from it? I could car less about gas consump. I will have it as a daily driver and maybe a street stomper on my days off. Lol. But just were I am not a machine shop near by and need a car every where you go out here. |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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If machine work is an issue, explore the 74x88 thick wall builds..... _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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luckystiff Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: hickory,nc
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Quokka42 wrote: |
OK, I'll give the first tip - don't build an 1835cc. You are going to have to machine the case and heads anyway, so go for 1775 or 1915. 90.5 will run cooler, which is important for a type 3, and it will be easier to get your compression down to a reasonable level.
Be conservative with your cam - maybe a cheater or "fuel-efficient series" as the type 3 is fairly heavy and won't fit huge carbs.
A 1775 with compression around 8:1, stock-type heads, a cheater cam and extractors can be a lot more pleasant to drive than stock. An "SVDA" is worth the extra money, too.
From there you will start spending the big bucks. |
if your gonna suggest it'll run cooler then the thick wall 88 or thickwall 92 are better than the 90.5s. and you can fit dell 44s on a type3 no problem. it's only the 48s that have issue.
we just finished a 2021cc(76x92tw) for my square. easy build and though i've only got about 40 miles on it and it still needs some tuning. i'd easy say it's got twice the stock horsepower and then some...ken.... _________________ ITMC
Secret Service |
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imz8478 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2010 Posts: 188 Location: NC
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Okay are you talking about a new case that is thickwalled or the barrels? |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7229 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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1914 type 3
Bugpack 4062-10 cam (Isnt available anymore, so I suggest a Web 119 or 218/119 instead.)
Panchito heads, 9-1 CR
40 IDF´s w. 32 mm venturi + ½" stacks (Very important)
1½"´merge header.
115 hp @ 5200 rpm
172 Nm @ 3500.
1745 type 3
CB 2280 cam
Massaged stock heads, 8,3 CR.
Stock carbs, modified to 34 mm TB and 26,5 mm venturi, upper part streamlined. Oil bath airfilter modified to K&N filter.
Stock heater boxes w. ISP over the top header/muffler.
73 hp @ 4000 rpm
132 Nm @ 3000 rpm.
The airfilter is still killing the power somewhat. A test without filters, quick made 2" stack out of drain pipe and a rejet revealed another 7 hp at 4400 and 5 Nm torque at 3000, plus it made the engine somewhat more attractive to spirited driving. But the lady owner just wanted some more torque so that she could "keep up with traffic" and wanted stock appearance as much as possible.
T
Last edited by Alstrup on Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thick walled refers to the cylinders. Traditionally builders steer away from 92mm as it has thinner than stock cylinder walls and were well know for warping and other overheating problems.
There are now thick-walled 92mm cylinders aimed largely at the turbo market - as they are the same outside diameter as 94mm, they have the same amount of room left for the fins, so if you machine for them you might as well go to 94mm.
Machining for 94/92 thick wall is a bit trickier and may not be practical for your existing case - especially if you have 10mm studs. It can also be tricky if using stock type head castings - you really want to go aftermarket.
Don't use standard 90.5mm cylinders on your type 3.
A lot depends on what you are looking for and how much you want to spend. Alstrup has listed a couple of great examples above. |
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luckystiff Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: hickory,nc
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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ok you're in charlotte. my buddy dan(mxracer here) just finished building my 2021cc stroker(76x92tw) for my squareback. he is now doing machine work for others in the area. don't think he has a big interest in doing full builds but can take care of you on machining for whatever combo.
your budget is probably going to have alot to do with which way you should go. i went in with a $3500 budget. i ended up closer to $4500.
dan has a 1904cc in his square so don't beleive the don't use 90.5s in a type3. i would say don't use 92 thinwalls and as far as going 94 instead of 92 the whole thing is 92s have the THICKEST cylindersnof any option. the next would be thickwall 88s.
i considered a 74x88tw(1800cc) before my 2021 came to be. i think it's a viable option that could be built reasonably...ken.... _________________ ITMC
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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imz8478 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2010 Posts: 188 Location: NC
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Okay. Am gettin a lot of great ideas. Wow kinda difficult to figure out what now. But the only the thing is is that I don't think I could do machine work. I want to have it done by the end of the year. Plus I wouldn't know what the range woul be on pricing. Anyhow I got some ideas but if you can let me know if all these require machine work. I still have to tear down my oldie and get the measures. Plus I am waiting for my engine stand to get here within the next week. So if let keep giving me all you know. And I am grateful for all you all are giving me. It helps from the Pros of The Samba. |
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luckystiff Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: hickory,nc
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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as i said earlier for machine work you live less than an hours drive from dan...... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=255391 his profile has his info. he does align boring and can machine your case and or heads for whatever size engine you want to build. i drove my square to work today with the new 2021cc(76x92tw) counting todays jaunt i have maybe 70 miles and about a third of that was today. so i'm still babying it a bit and NOT surpassing 4500-5000rpm at all at this point. BUT i can tell you it wants to go there badly. as much as i hate to say it it may be a little high strung for a daily driver. it likes 3800rpm and up ALOT. i'm probably going to add an external cooler to make it more DD friendly as below 2800 or so rpm my oil temps tend to see 230ish range. 3300rpm or above and it stays 180-190. it pulls hills nicer than my wifes new honda. i hit one on the way home that has ALWAYS demanded shifting from 4th to 3rd to pull and sometimes drop as low as second if behind a slow mover. i got behind a kinda slow mover on it today and it pulled it in 4th like there was nothing to it.
anyhow there are tons of choices. i think for type3 basing you build around the thickwall 88s or thickwall 92s is a sound idea. both can have the case side of the jug cut dwn a bit(chico sells the 88s already done this way for $149 ) but i cut mine for 92/94 as i'll use thickwall 92s in here again if i break in it again. so with that theory 74x88(1800cc), 74x92(1967cc), 76x88(18??), 76x92(2021 what i have). then choose cam and other compents to go with your size. if you don't paln on upgrading to 40x35.5 valved heads($450+) or going bigger carbs then i would probably do the 1800cc. finding us around one weekend and checking out our cars may help you decide(dan has a 1904(74x90.5) in his square...ken.... _________________ ITMC
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flyboat Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2010 Posts: 2752 Location: Bath NC
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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You should be able to apply these principles to a type 3. If you want 1800 or so, here is ther way to get it in a dependable and inexpensive way
http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/ _________________ 79 super Vert
62 Ragtop Bug
66 tintop Westy
Porsche 914
09 Z06 Vette track car |
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imz8478 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2010 Posts: 188 Location: NC
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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luckystiff wrote: |
as i said earlier for machine work you live less than an hours drive from dan...... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=255391 his profile has his info. he does align boring and can machine your case and or heads for whatever size engine you want to build. i drove my square to work today with the new 2021cc(76x92tw) counting todays jaunt i have maybe 70 miles and about a third of that was today. so i'm still babying it a bit and NOT surpassing 4500-5000rpm at all at this point. BUT i can tell you it wants to go there badly. as much as i hate to say it it may be a little high strung for a daily driver. it likes 3800rpm and up ALOT. i'm probably going to add an external cooler to make it more DD friendly as below 2800 or so rpm my oil temps tend to see 230ish range. 3300rpm or above and it stays 180-190. it pulls hills nicer than my wifes new honda. i hit one on the way home that has ALWAYS demanded shifting from 4th to 3rd to pull and sometimes drop as low as second if behind a slow mover. i got behind a kinda slow mover on it today and it pulled it in 4th like there was nothing to it.
anyhow there are tons of choices. i think for type3 basing you build around the thickwall 88s or thickwall 92s is a sound idea. both can have the case side of the jug cut dwn a bit(chico sells the 88s already done this way for $149 ) but i cut mine for 92/94 as i'll use thickwall 92s in here again if i break in it again. so with that theory 74x88(1800cc), 74x92(1967cc), 76x88(18??), 76x92(2021 what i have). then choose cam and other compents to go with your size. if you don't paln on upgrading to 40x35.5 valved heads($450+) or going bigger carbs then i would probably do the 1800cc. finding us around one weekend and checking out our cars may help you decide(dan has a 1904(74x90.5) in his square...ken.... |
Okay Ken. Does anyone have any kits? Like rebuild able kits and I can just build off of what comes in the package? I saw some before. |
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IAMIROY Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2011 Posts: 294 Location: Palmdale, CA
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Quokka42 wrote: |
Be conservative with your cam - maybe a cheater or "fuel-efficient series" as the type 3 is fairly heavy and won't fit huge carbs. |
44 HPMX fit fine in a Type 3 _________________ Mark's Squareback build |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: |
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You can always cut holes in the deck lid.
Seriously, I loved my type 3, but it is hard to fit decent carbs/manifolds in there. The "Under the deck" kits use short manifolds which push the inertia tuning too high for practical use of a 3 with stock gearing.
Didn't know that when I was young - but a side draft carby ("borrowed" from a rally car) feeding a plenum into four pipes into the cylinders turned out to be fun!
Have fun! This is a great place for advice, but don't be afraid to try stuff just 'cos some old fogey says it's no good. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7229 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: |
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44 IDF´s with limited venturies a.o. small details will work on a type 3, also with the tiny filters. But not necessay on an 1800 cc. 40 is better. - OR do the right thing, carb wise on a type 3, - DCNF carbs. It´ll take a little shopping around to get a linkage that work well with those. But it will be worth every penny. 36és will do on a mild 1800.
T |
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