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Who's installed an 091 Transmission in an early Bay?
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject: Who's installed an 091 Transmission in an early Bay? Reply with quote

I've done a search with no results on this. I'm working on a 1968 Bay Window Bus and the owner is interested in upgrading the transmission. We could just go with a 1969-1971 tranny and have the internals reworked and upgraded but it seems that everyone likes the 091 because it's geared higher for the freeway as well as being built tough from the factory. One issue I've heard and I'm trying to verify is that the 091 is 5/8 inch longer and therefore the engine would sit too far aft putting a bind on the mustache bar. I'm wondering if this could be mitigated by swapping the 091 bell housing for the early bell housing. If you have experience with this please let me know. TIA

PS- The bus has a 2007cc engine
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ned
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have with my 2006cc stroker motor.
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting PM's and phone calls telling me that if you change the nose cone and the bell housing that it will work, at least it did in a 1971.
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VWDruid
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC theirs a thread in the dune buggy section on this.
you will also have to mill the shaft down some for it to fit.
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWDruid wrote:
IIRC theirs a thread in the dune buggy section on this.
you will also have to mill the shaft down some for it to fit.


I know about the length of the input shaft. In fact I've actually cut one before myself. If we go with an 091 we would have the shop install the shorter shaft along with the 002 bell housing. The jury is still out as to the nose cone swap. I have Jason at Don's Bus Box in Arizona checking the overall length right now. Just waiting for a call back.
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VWDruid
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if they have a part# that I can see under the bus I'll try and get it for you, any other part # or a pic of some thing while Im there?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so we're changing out an 002 in favor of an 091 that's wearing the 002's bellhousing; makes sense so far.

Now to the 091's longish input shaft: is there an advantage to swapping in the 002's input shaft (not real complicated, I'm told), rather than cutting off 9/16-5/8" of the 091 shaft?

And what parts of the shift linkage need to be changed over, once the tranny & engine are in place (assuming one has both early & late linkage pieces from which to choose)?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WestyPop wrote:
OK, so we're changing out an 002 in favor of an 091 that's wearing the 002's bellhousing; makes sense so far.

Now to the 091's longish input shaft: is there an advantage to swapping in the 002's input shaft (not real complicated, I'm told), rather than cutting off 9/16-5/8" of the 091 shaft?

And what parts of the shift linkage need to be changed over, once the tranny & engine are in place (assuming one has both early & late linkage pieces from which to choose)?


We'll be having one built for us custom in a shop so instead of getting the 091 shaft they will just install the 002 shaft and bell housing. As far as linkage I think what we have will work.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am real interested to see how this goes. i have a 71 and the 4th gear just decided to go out on me so i have been looking into what i can do and have thought about this tranny swap. good luck
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just Pmed Aeromech this i'll just post for the rest.


looking at this: http://www.type2.com/library/identifi/modvar.htm
VW never ran a 002 with a 2.0 but the 002 guts may be different: http://www.type2.com/library/drivetra/091data.htm

1976 Chassis Number 216-2000-001 - 216-2300-000
Engine Number CJ-0-000-001 -
GD-0-000-001 -
1970 cc, 67 HP @ 4200
Transmission: 4-speed manual, 091 CP
3-speed automatic, 010 NF
Fuel System: Bosch L-Jetronic AFC Electronic Fuel Injection
Imported to U.S. 20,825
Total Produced:


http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/FAQContent.html
4.1 Transmission Swaps:

Transmissions swaps are probably the most asked question. VW engineered in a lot of compatibilty but a few snags exist. First the facts:

* 68-75: 002 transmission and Bosch SR15 starter
* 76-79: 091 transmisssion and Bosch SR87 starter

* 68-71: 200mm flywheel & clutch
* 72-74.5: 210mm flywheel & clutch
* 74.5-75: 215mm flywheel & clutch (from VIN 214 2 125001)
* 76-79: 228mm flywheel & clutch

Vanagons also used the 228mm clutch (NB: from January to March of 1983 Volkswagen put a 215mm clutch and PP in the Vanagon but decided they had to switch back).

Now you know what came from where, what can you swap around? In general if you have a 2.0L engine with a 228mm clutch and pressure plate it will only fit the 091 bellhousing. This means to use an earlier transmission with the 228mm flywheel you'll need the later bellhousing otherwise you'll need to use a smaller clutch and pressure plate. The 228mm flywheel only engages the SR87 starter which complicates swapping (the earlier starter won't reach the flywheel teeth because of the bellhousing...)

The 091 input shaft is slightly longer than the shaft in the 002 transmission used in 72-75 buses but because the 091 bellhousing is also longer, the same length of input shaft extends forward from the edge of the bellhousing and is therefore compatible with earlier models. The yellow workshop manual says that the distance is 27mm for 74-79 models (no 72-73 data in the book unfortunately). In other words a Type 4 engine will bolt to any 72-79 transmission but you have have to swap flywheels components and the starter.

If you swap an older bellhousing onto the 091 in order to use a smaller clutch disc, you will have to swap the 002 input shaft onto the 091. To do this, remove the bellhousing, take the circlip out of the groove and slide the gear and the circlip up the shaft so you can turn the shaft to undo the stud holding it on.

Because the 091 bellhousing is longer the 76-79 cases have longer studs on the bottom. To use the 091 on a 72-75 case, you must install the longer studs.

However, the 091 transmission as a whole is about an inch longer than the 002. This means that the transmission sits further forward in the bus. If you use the 091 transmission in an earlier bus then the shiftrod will be angled backwards slightly. If you use the earlier transmission on a later bus then the shiftrod will hit the parking brake.

You may have to swap shift rod parts in order to get the shifter into the correct position. The shift rod changed in 74 so you can borrow parts from 74-75 and 76-79 setups to help accomodate the change of length of the transmission as well as make your own mods.

The input shaft of the 68-71 transmission is shorter than the later models by 11mm because it needs to engage the pilot bearing sitting in the gland nut of the Type I engine. If you use this transmission with a Type IV engine the input shaft will not engage the pilot bearing properly and will chew up the needles. The workaround for this is to machine the flywheel opening in order to press the pilot bearing into the flywheel instead of the crankshaft.

On page 435 of the latest edition of Muir, John Hilgerdt recounts the story of a 75 tranny that chewed up the pilot bearing of a 78 bus. There is no good reason for this because the 228mm flywheel won't fit a 002 bellhousing so a compatible flywheel must have been used.

I can only speculate as to what parts they actually used because the input shaft is the same length and the pilot bearing is the same distance from tip of the input shaft among Type 4 flywheels. What seems more probable is that they used a 68-71 tranny but since the 68-71 flywheel won't bolt onto any Type 4 engine, they used an incompatible flywheel so the parts mismatch to make it "work" was horrendous!

Using the 72-79 transmission with a Type I engine necessitates swapping the input shaft (and bellhousing in the case of the 091) because it's too long and the shaft will bottom out in the gland nut.

To remove the transmission undo the following:

* undo clutch cable
* remove backup light switch wiring
* uncouple the shift rod from the nose cone
* unbolt transmission ground strap
* remove starter or disconnect all wires
* disconnect the axles by undoing the cvjoint at the flange on each side
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wanted Chameleon Circuit
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towd
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Done it a few times, Buses , bugs and buggies. This is as simple as just changing the bell housing and input shaft. This extra lenght talked about is in the bellhousing and shaft. I've never had a replace a nose cone.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did it to my '71.

Input shaft, bellhousing, and I changed the studs in the nosecone.

I was told to swap the studs because they would get in the way of changing the nosecone mount, with everything installed someday down the road.
Don't know if there is any truth to that.

No problem with the mustache bar, the mounts take up the difference in length.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is only 3/8 inch diffrence I don't know where the 5/8 came from. if you change the bell housing the diffrence with be down to a 1/4 inch. The nose cone is the same lenth but the 091 has beaings instead of bushing so it shift's better. The lenth in the 091 is in its gear carrier the gears are wider. The main housing is the same lenth. I already when over this with you in a PM did you not get it? by the way you do not just start changing shift rods around thay will not work. there is a reason why thay are diffrent but be my guest let me know how it works for you. That is the rods in the trany if the earlyer post is talking about the rod in the bus going to the shifter then my bad carry on. The shifter shouldnt hit the parking brake unless you have a exstention becouse it will just go under the handle.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How difficult is the procedure to replace an input shaft?
I have both 002 and 091 on the floor now.


Last edited by hyeena on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hyeena wrote:
How difficult is the procedure to replace a input shaft?
I have both 002 and 091 on the floor now.


I can't answer that but for the install I did I just cut off the shaft about 3/8 inch and cleaned up the edges.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I could try this trick first if I find tools strong enought. Not going to use 091's input shaft anyway.

I use 002 bellhousing thought.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I posted it somewhere on how to do that but all you have to do is pull the bell housing off look down the input shaft you will see a snap ring pull it to you about a half inch or so let it site on the shaft then take a hook pull the gear the snap ring was holding back pull to you then turn the shaft till comes off reinstall in the rev order make sure that snap ring fits tight to the shaft if it comes off then all hell will break loose going down the road Shocked so the speak.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow I knew you'd have an answer for this guy BB. Feeling any better?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pm'ed you
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, the 091 transmission as a whole is about an inch longer than the 002. This means that the transmission sits further forward in the bus. If you use the 091 transmission in an earlier bus then the shiftrod will be angled backwards slightly. If you use the earlier transmission on a later bus then the shiftrod will hit the parking brake.


I just got my first westy and bus for that matter. Have been trying to fix wild shift rod. Front bushing toast so I replaced.
Better.
I found out when I bought the bus that it does not have an og 79 engine, but a mass rebuilt 75-78.
OK, I was under today to check the clutch cable wing nut freeplay and noticed that there were only three ribs on the tranny. and the 3s strat with 002.
Reading the quote above my shift DOES hit the parking brake.
So am I to undersatnd that my problem is not an adjustment, but the wrong transmission?
Does someone have a pic, should I have a "091 6-rib".

Thanks Peter
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