head gasket replacement tribulations ('86 2wd 2.1L wbx)

[phlogiston]

the head gaskets are leaking pretty badly in my '86 2wd van. guess in retrospect i should have changed them out when i put that used engine in a couple years ago. live and learn...

i spent the morning looking through old posts... much thanks to "id" for his very comprehensive photo documentation of his top end rebuild and of course to 10centlife for his significant contributions to that thread. i've already learned a lot (like how to break off that deprecated TDC sensor in order to access the front intake manifold nut).

spent the afternoon gettin dirty... got the intake, exhaust, coolant plumbing, and wiring removed. looks like i'm about ready to pull the heads tomorrow morning.

but i already am puzzled... bently says i need to remove the water pump and crankshaft pulley. is this really necessary? it looks like i could get to everything i need to access with these in place... and the water pump is pretty new so i'm not going to replace it.

[fatboypaul]

No need to remove the waterpump. Gonna ruffle a few feathers here... hate the Bentley.

[phlogiston]

well if i don't need to pull the WP, then i can't imagine there's any need to remove the crank pulley... which is somewhat of a relief. now let's just hope those gasket surfaces aren't too pitted! should know in a few hours...

[wbx]

[crazyvwvanman]

I don't know anyone who exactly loves the Bentley.

The Bentley procedure includes removing the cyls and pistons. Most people do not care to do that for head gasket replacement. Some of the other steps in the Bentley can thus be ignored, like taking off items that allow access to the wrist pins.

Mark

[insyncro]

www.benplace.com
Check out the nitty gritty on gaskets and watch the videos.
Please donate to Ben as well!
Very informative.

FYI, all waterboxers that I have resealed this way, using the products he has recommended have performed flawlessly!
Thanks for spending the time Ben.

[phlogiston]

thanks for the advice guys! (and again, much thanks to 10cent for all his posts and to ben for his excellent web page)

i realized why bently wants all that stuff from the rear of the engine removed when i saw someone's picture of the wrist pin being removed through the water pump opening on the case... then i realized why bently says to leave the oil drain plug out as i watched coolant run into the pushrod tubes from under the freshly loosened head nuts.

so i got the heads out today...

hmmm... can't tell how badly pitted that gasket surface is yet. and what's this?

a bit of research and i realize that this is the "factory" crack that is often observed on heads with a few miles. looks like i've got it on every single cylinder.

does this look like a benign instance of the crack? it certainly appears to be under the .5mm threshold to my eye micrometer. i don't have a spring compressor; should i take the heads to a shop and have them pull the valves to see if the crack extends under the valve seat?

and what's the best way to clean the heads? i don't have a parts washer... i've seen photos on here of people using wire brushes in a drill or angle grinder, but i'm wondering if the steel bristles might scour away some aluminum and do more damage than help. would it be better to use a brass brush in my grinder or does it not matter?

thanks!

[phlogiston]

well i just got off the phone with the shop that i left the heads with today... the guy who pulled out the valves said that the cracks go pretty deep, most of the way through the valve seats, and that his machinist said it's not worth welding them. i'm going to go by tomorrow and check them out, i'll get some pictures then.

is the general rule of thumb that VW's statement about the cracks being benign if under .5mm is rendered false if the cracks are deep?

guess it's time to seriously consider a set of AMC heads... though the guy i spoke with today (works at a sweet little VW/porsche shop called "air cooleds only" but helped me out anyway!) said that he thought the AMC heads come with a 2-angle valve seat, not the 3 angle grind recommended by VW. is this true? he said if i bought new heads i'd want to get a valve job done on them before installation. should have known this was going to get expensive!

[insyncro]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1100554

I am the seller and the price is wholesale which helps a little.
Yes, work can be done to these NEW heads.
GoWesty gets $500 each after doing the "work".

[phlogiston]

thanks for the responses... picked the heads up yesterday and confirmed that they are toast.... 3 cylinders show signs of exhaust getting sucked through the deep cracks and in to the intake. i'm not sure how bad the "normal" cracks are, and i know bentley says <0.5mm is ok, but my intuition is that these heads look ready to drop a valve seat at any time.

since the amc heads seem like they need some serious investment right out of the box, i decided to go with rebuilt ones. i realize that they may (or will) crack again, but it seemed like an economical compromise that would get me good valvetrain parts within my budget, and i tend to trust volks cafe on anything they sell.

since i'm putting "new" heads on, i feel compelled to try to pull the engine and fix the oil leak from my bellhousing. would most of you agree that it's worthwhile to pull the cylinders and replace the piston rings as well? i had 110-120psi compression in each cylinder before i pulled the heads.

how about the oil pump? i'd really like to not hassle with the crank pulley... haven't researched it yet but i can't think of any reasonable way to tighten that thing. does it seem reasonable to leave the oil pump and rod bearings alone?

[Vango Conversions]

Ah how one thing leads to another. It goes from a simple gasket change to a full rebuild.

I would certainly pull the engine at this point no matter what route you decide to go. Even for just a head gasket change, it'll make everything else easier.

As far as the rest, it's a slippery slope, lookout man!

[tencentlife]

Classic crope sceep (oonerspized for knose in the thow).
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
also available at VanCafe.com!

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is death to doctrine.

[MarkWard]

I am pretty sure that when VW gave a maximum crack allowance it was to avoid having to buy the customers new cylinder heads while the engines were still under warranty. Sort of along the lines as having us reseal the head nuts when they would leak under warranty. The idea was to keep them on the road long enough to expire the warranty and then get the customers to pay to have the job done properly.

[phlogiston]

damn.... really in a quandary here. i've got a week to be done with this before i need the van running again. as i struggle to get my hands on an engine hoist, i can't help but wonder if this is all worth the trouble. i'm pretty annoyed that there is oil leaking out of the bell housing since the main seal and flywheel oring have maybe 10,000 miles on them tops, and it just reminds me that everything i touch in this engine is really going to be just as uncertain after i reassemble it as it is now.

how likely is it that the oil will end up on my clutch?

what is a ball park average of the service life for piston rings, wrist pin bushings, con rod bearings? would most of you go through the hassle of changing rings on an engine with maybe 100k miles?

[JunkYarDog]

Question....

If the valves were re-installed, could one pour a little gasoline into one runner with the head face down and watch for intrusion into the other runner via cracks?

We used to check valves to see how well they were sealing by filling the combustion chamber and watching for it to stay in or run through the valve/seat mateing surface.

(I know, I know... how shade tree can this guy be)
_________________
I have never owned a VW I didn't like, but there have been a few Fords and Chevy's.
85' GL Sunroof
68' Beetle sedan
72' Chevy C10 (LWB Step)
(67' Volvo 122S pending)

[phlogiston]

i think a crack would have to be pretty big before much fuel would pour through. (though i guess that could be an easy way to check for a bad crack without removing the valves). in any case, my concern is not so much the small amount of unintentional "EGR" it's more that the valve seats will fall right out at some point soon.

thanks to a generous local samba member i got hooked up with an engine hoist today. should have the engine out first thing in the morning and will hopefully make up my mind as to whether or not to pull the pistons out.

[hdenter]

How many miles on this engine? 110-120 PSI is kind of low...Do you have an oil pressure gauge in this van? How is the oil pressure at a hot idle? In for a penny, in for a pound. If you don't know the age if this "used engine" I would think about just doing the whole thing. A main seal leak after only 10k would worry me if it was a good quality seal that you installed. On the other hand, if you need it in a week and you don't mind doing it all over again soon, what the hell. The rebuilt heads would likely still be good after a few thousand miles if the engine continues to decline.

hans
_________________
'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[ftp2leta]

[phlogiston]

[ftp2leta]