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Excessive crankshaft endplay ... cooked engine?
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surf_blau
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:56 pm    Post subject: Excessive crankshaft endplay ... cooked engine? Reply with quote

I have been searching the archives but not see anything like this.

I have an 84 westy with 190K on it. There has been one rebuild. It was parked in a barn for 5+ years and just brought back into service last year.

In the last year, I have had a steadily growing oil leak. Oil was basically everywhere on the underside of the engine. It had gotten worse to the point that there was a couple of tablespoons of leakage after every trip of 10 minutes or more. Plus the tailgate door was filmed with oil.

I dropped the transmission and replaced the rear main seal. There was an elring one in there. The galley plugs did not appear to be leaking. That time I put a victor reinz main seal in. It leaked right away when I got it back together. So I removed the trans again and used the Sabo gowesty seal...noting that the victor reinz seal was partially torn on removal...now the Sabo is leaking...heavily. I dropped the trans a third time (getting good at it) and observed that the lip of the seal was slightly shredded.

So at this point I figured that I should get out the dial gauge and see what the endplay is. I measured it with the seal in place and the flywheel off (I know...that is not the right way...but in this case i don't think it matters).

I got an endplay of 1.7mm. Seriously. That was 1.7 revolutions of my kaefer dial gauge. Using my thumbs, I can push the crankshaft in and pull on two flywheel bolts about 2mm in and out. So, it seems about right.

This is about 12 times the wear limit...so either my measurement is grossly wrong (possible) or ???

Is it even possible that there could be that much end play and what would next step be? Replace/rebuild?

thanks
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The flywheel sets the endplay. You measurements are of no value, redo the measurement with the shims that were inside the seal in place, and the flywheel bolted on to at least 30 ft.lb.

You're on the right track, diagnosis-wise, to be checking the endplay. Also inspect the flange on the back of the flywheel where the seal lip rides. If there is a palpable groove worn in the flange it will leak. If you can catch your fingernail in the groove, it's too far gone.

I've been thru this same ordeal you're going thru. Third time's a charm!
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surf_blau
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: thanks - I will recheck per the book Reply with quote

Thanks - it makes sense that the flywheel sets the endplay. I will remeasure by the book.

As luck has it, I have two flywheels. The original does clearly have a groove on the outside of the lip from wear. That was at least one source of leaks...

The re-machined one that I got from gowesty does not.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the new FW, you'll lick that leak, finally. But you should do one more check since you're in there and it's a 1.9.

The 1.9 case uses the older type of thrust bearing akin to a Type1. Excessive endplay can also come from axial movement of the bearing within the case itself if the bearing's thrust shoulders have gotten hammered out. The way you check for that is to remove the FW again, add an extra shim and bolt up the FW so there will be no axial play between the crank/FW combo and the bearing itself. When you do this you will not be able to rotate the crank at all. Bolt it up this way and then measure axial movement with your dial indicator; there should be none whatsoever.

You will have to use a lot of force to make the bearing move, if it is able to; use two prybars between the FW and case flange to pull the crank forward, and two channel-locks or clamps to move it back, or pry against the pulley.

There should be no measurable movement at all. That shows that the #1 thrust bearing is still a snug fit in its saddle and its thrust shoulders aren't getting hammered out.

If you pick up movement there then there is only one proper remedy; split the case and install an oversize-thrust #1 bearing machined to the saddle width. There is a quick and dirty remedy without overhaul of peening the thrust shoulder on the outside to make it clamp on the saddle, but that will be a pretty temporary solution.
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surf_blau
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject: endplay measurement Reply with quote

Measuring by the book, I got 0.63mm of endplay net with the 2 - 0.30mm shims and no rings/seals and the flywheel bolted in place.

So, it appears if I change the 0.30mm shims to 0.40mm shims and use the existing 0.34mm will give me the recommended 0.10mm endplay....

at least I hope so.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Busboys sells the shims individually, if you need one of a particular size. They are the same shims as used in a Type4 engine.
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 1.9 with 143K had an endplay of .006". I asked Boston Bob (Boston Engine) about it and he said to leave it. I cannot remember the details but he said it would do more harm than good on my 1.9 because their bearing setup is different than the 2.1 (that should be adjusted). Tencentlife mentioned the difference in the thrust bearing and I think that was the difference that Boston Bob mentioned.

I'm just conveying what I was told by someone with alot of experience with these 1.9 engines, so I followed his advice and did not realy question it.

Sorry I cannot explain more than that. Maybee other's can. (10C??)
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Explain what?
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Pascal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Explain what?


What would happen to the 1.9 case or the thrust bearign or the #1 bearing by tightening up the endplay. I might be able to find Boston Bob's old email on this but that will require some digging on my other computer on Monday. I think he said it would damage the case but I migh be remembering wrong...this was two years ago.

I personally never craked a 1.9 open...just a 2.1 so I realy cannot offer anything else than what B.Bob advised me.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An engine with plenty of miles on it is .001" out of spec. So? A little wear is normal and expected; that's actually respectably tight for that mileage.

You can tighten the endplay to put it back in spec if you want, it absolutely won't hurt a thing, irrespective of engine type, but it won't help anything either since there's nothing wrong.

Bob Donalds is gone and I can't speak for him, but I tend to think that perhaps his point was, why bother?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found that reply from Boston Bob that I mentioned on Saturday:

"Never add (Change) shims on a used high milage 1.9 to lessen the crank movement. The reason of the increase in endplay on the 1.9 engines is the movement of the main bearing in the case. So if you where to use thicker shims to eliminate the endplay you would run the risk of locking the flywheel to the rear main bearing due to the lack of clearance between the thrust surfaces"

And in a follow up email B. Bob wrote:

"do not try to close down the end play, its the bearing movment not the shims that are worn so if you tighten up the endplay the rear main will sieze.

For the 1.9, 006" is fine, it's not broken, dont fix it. For the 2.1, it could be tightened, but don't bother, it's not a problem.

Bob"

Just sharring some of BB's thought/experiences on the subject.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's true, if your thrust bearing is moving in the case. I explained above how to isolate and check for that. Bob was assuming it is, but it doesn't have to be, a couple thousandth's extra play can be due to normal wear in a high-miles engine. If it is we agree that it's not something you need to bother with, but I would want to know if the thrust bearing is actually moving so I have a clear assessment of the engine's actual condition. A loose thrust bearing means I'm scheduling an overhaul sooner, rather than later.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see in another thread a poster is puzzling over how tight to do the FW bolts to close up the thrust so you can measure 1.9 thrust bearing movement in the case. Good question, actually. But better to keep the explanation with the topic so I'm posting here.

What you would want to do first is measure the existing endplay, and based on that make a shim pack that just closes it up, plus one or two thousandths to be sure. Then just tightening the FW bolts to 15-20 ft.lb. or so is plenty; the crank should lock up before you reach that torque. Or you can tighten bit by bit until the crank locks up and then just a tiny bit more to be sure the crank and flywheel are grabbing the thrust bearing solidly. Then you can pry the crank/FW/bearing combo axially to see if it budges. Any measurable axial movement is too much. Try to measure close to the centerline of the crank since by prying you can easily flex the outer edge of the FW more than .001"; positioning a dial indicator on the center of the pulley bolt would be the best setup.

Remember, when you tighten bolts to a specified torque, the torque doesn't generally change the closeness of the parts the fasteners are holding together; the components the bolts are holding together are held together as close as they're going to get at a pretty small torque on the fasteners. The additional torque is to tension the fasteners against the anticipated loads and stresses under use, but the parts they are joining are already as close as they're ever going to get. That's why when doing normal endplay adjustments on one of these engines, you don't need to torque the FW bolts to the final 80ft.lb. on every check, the FW is already as tight as it will ever get on the crank nose by the time there is even a moderate torque on the bolts. For measuring, I just run them in with a short blast on a small butterfly air wrench that is only capable of about 40ft.lb. at most; the bolts aren't tighter than 25-30 ft.lb. that way. Save that extra strain on the bolts for the final torque, they'll perform better over the long term if they're not stretched and released again and again.
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