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andk5591
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Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16757
Location: State College, PA
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 Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Yeah - 2 things - #1 What model distributor do you have? The advice on timing is really dependent on that - some are vac only, for example.
#2 if you have flaps in the shroud, are they open? Worked on a bug that had a missing theremostat and the linkage was messed up so the flaps stayed closed - causing the engine to run real warm. so - you do you have a thermostat? If not, reach behind the shroud and see if you can feel the for the linkage and if it moves freely that the spring isnt holding it in the open position -
This is what you are dealing with
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D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
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johnnypan
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Joined: October 24, 2007
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Location: sackamenna
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Your engine needs to break in some.
You can do a max timing check by running it at 3k with the vac hoses on...watch the timing mark,when it stabilizes (quits advancing) that means the vacuum signal is full..once again it should be 28 to 32 degrees..
But first and foremost you need to run some miles,if your nervous about the temp slice and stick a tennis ball on the decklid handle hook.. |
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
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Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| a. Can timing being too far RETARDED cause engine to run hot?? |
Yes.
As suggested above, use a strobe to check your total advance, and try to find out why the timing is slipping. New distributor clamps are inexpensive and easy to replace; just make sure you have one of good quality. And don't overtighten the clamp nut, or you can twist the bolt in two without realizing it and you'll think the distributor is tight when it's really not.
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75smith
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Joined: July 09, 2011
Posts: 2275
Location: NH
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8-12deg Adv; Centrifugal: 13-16deg @ 2200rpm, 25-28deg @ 3900rpm
if the timing slipped, check the clamp, also would not be bad to check the timing range, I've had a spring break on me once, engine ran fine, but would over advance rather quickly causing hot running
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SBD
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Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Have you checked the fan to be sure that nothing has been sucked into it? Could be partially clogged. |
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| johnnypan wrote: |
Your engine needs to break in some.
You can do a max timing check by running it at 3k with the vac hoses on...watch the timing mark,when it stabilizes (quits advancing) that means the vacuum signal is full..once again it should be 28 to 32 degrees..
But first and foremost you need to run some miles,if your nervous about the temp slice and stick a tennis ball on the decklid handle hook.. |
I'll try setting timing @ max advance and see if that helps- aren't you supposed to leave the hoses disconnected and plugged for that as well?
| 75smith wrote: |
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8-12deg Adv; Centrifugal: 13-16deg @ 2200rpm, 25-28deg @ 3900rpm
if the timing slipped, check the clamp, also would not be bad to check the timing range, I've had a spring break on me once, engine ran fine, but would over advance rather quickly causing hot running |
I am going to invest in a new distributor clamp- mine is definitely warped, but I thought it was holding tight.
On another note, as I have mentioned before, according to those specs you posted from OVH, my distributor is SVDA (no mention of vacuum retard range.) However the matching vacuum can for it is DVDA, so I have never really been sure whether those specs listed are accurate.
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1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Actually on the subject of timing, here is what my real conundrum is:
On most all DVDA distributors the specs call for timing at 5°ATDC with both vacuum hoses CONNECTED. However most of the SVDA distributors call for timing at 7.5°BTDC with the vacuum advance hose DISCONNECTED AND PLUGGED.
So let's just assume my distributor is SVDA since the specs for it do not give a vacuum retard range. I know it's supposed to be timed at 0°TDC but would this be WITH of WITHOUT the hoses connected, since my matching vacuum can DOES have a vacuum retard hose port?? This is the correct vacuum can for my distributor but the specs don't match up.
Even if I timed it at max advance, again should I leave the vacuum hoses connected or not? Your guess is as good as mine.
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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andk5591
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Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16757
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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If you have the retard hose unplugged, you should have no vac pulling at idle, so on or off on the advance side doesnt matter - so now I am assuming that you have a DVDA?.
Screw the idle timing adjust for the moment - both hoses disconencted run up RPMs until it doesnt advance anymore and see where you are - should between 28 and 32. With that advance hose connected, should go into the mid 40s - if that happens, your vac advance and vac signal from the carb seem to be good. And when you drop to idle - it should be around 5 or so degrees. When you hook up the retard it will do something, but I dont run DVDAs on any of mine right now, so I assume it drops further at idle.
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D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
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Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
| If you have the retard hose unplugged, you should have no vac pulling at idle, so on or off on the advance side doesnt matter - so now I am assuming that you have a DVDA?. |
THIS is what I have no idea about, and what bothers me about my setup and timing. The specs from Old Volks Home only show a vacuum ADVANCE range, PLUS they call for the vacuum hose (singular) to be disconnected and plugged when setting timing. Thus all the signs point to my distributor being an SVDA.
However, my vacuum canister is obviously for a DVDA, with the retard port. Again it IS the correct matching vacuum can for my distributor.
I suppose if both SVDA and DVDA distributors have the vacuum hoses disconnected and plugged if setting timing at max advance, then the confusion over which one I am truly running wouldn't matter-- I can just set it that way with vacuum hoses plugged.
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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75smith
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Joined: July 09, 2011
Posts: 2275
Location: NH
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| andk5591 wrote: |
| If you have the retard hose unplugged, you should have no vac pulling at idle, so on or off on the advance side doesnt matter - so now I am assuming that you have a DVDA?. |
THIS is what I have no idea about, and what bothers me about my setup and timing. The specs from Old Volks Home only show a vacuum ADVANCE range, PLUS they call for the vacuum hose (singular) to be disconnected and plugged when setting timing. Thus all the signs point to my distributor being an SVDA.
However, my vacuum canister is obviously for a DVDA, with the retard port. Again it IS the correct matching vacuum can for my distributor.
I suppose if both SVDA and DVDA distributors have the vacuum hoses disconnected and plugged if setting timing at max advance, then the confusion over which one I am truly running wouldn't matter-- I can just set it that way with vacuum hoses plugged. |
Correct, Vacuum really only effects part idle and partial loads, how loaded, and how much throttle would effect what vacuum region(advance or retard)
on most DVDA's the vacuum is not a factor at higher rpms as both circuits would see both vacuum signals evenly, obviously the only way to truly test the distributor is to run it on a distributor machine
you see more retard at idle because of emissions, most all DVDA's(not just VW's) were built for emissions, retarding the ignition reduced the burn time and thus reduced NOx emissions-retarding the ignition would typically increase fuel consumption and cylinder heat
I would set your timing as suggested by the factory, but double check that it does advance to a respectable point at higher rpms(typically around the 28-32 degrees)
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johnnypan
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Joined: October 24, 2007
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Location: sackamenna
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| 75smith wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
| andk5591 wrote: |
| If you have the retard hose unplugged, you should have no vac pulling at idle, so on or off on the advance side doesnt matter - so now I am assuming that you have a DVDA?. |
THIS is what I have no idea about, and what bothers me about my setup and timing. The specs from Old Volks Home only show a vacuum ADVANCE range, PLUS they call for the vacuum hose (singular) to be disconnected and plugged when setting timing. Thus all the signs point to my distributor being an SVDA.
However, my vacuum canister is obviously for a DVDA, with the retard port. Again it IS the correct matching vacuum can for my distributor.
I suppose if both SVDA and DVDA distributors have the vacuum hoses disconnected and plugged if setting timing at max advance, then the confusion over which one I am truly running wouldn't matter-- I can just set it that way with vacuum hoses plugged. |
Correct, Vacuum really only effects part idle and partial loads, how loaded, and how much throttle would effect what vacuum region(advance or retard)
on most DVDA's the vacuum is not a factor at higher rpms as both circuits would see both vacuum signals evenly, obviously the only way to truly test the distributor is to run it on a distributor machine
you see more retard at idle because of emissions, most all DVDA's(not just VW's) were built for emissions, retarding the ignition reduced the burn time and thus reduced NOx emissions-retarding the ignition would typically increase fuel consumption and cylinder heat
I would set your timing as suggested by the factory, but double check that it does advance to a respectable point at higher rpms(typically around the 28-32 degrees) |
Okay,vacuum is present when the engine is stable or decelerating,vacuum is minimal or not present when the engine is under load,accelerating . when checking max advance,check with both hoses hooked up to simulate actual driving conditions...rev engine to 2500 rpm or so and allow the timing mark to stop advancing (have your light hooked up and on)..it will advance gradually when you rev to 2500,then peak a short time later...this is your max advance.
those who have a problem understanding vacuum/engine load relationship need only to talk to an old person,those who drove cars with vacuum winshield wipers..you learned quickly how to govern engine load and vacuum control when driving in a rainstorm..it had a real safety benefit as well..you always feathered the throttle to keep your wiper working..floor boarding left you blind.. |
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sb001
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Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| johnnypan wrote: |
Okay,vacuum is present when the engine is stable or decelerating,vacuum is minimal or not present when the engine is under load,accelerating . when checking max advance,check with both hoses hooked up to simulate actual driving conditions...
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This goes against everything I have ever read on here about setting timing at max advance.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409861
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
If you are setting the max centrifical advance, you need to remove the vacuum lines from the distributor can. You don't have to plug the lines, for what you are doing.
Then hook them both up and see where the timing goes at correct idle speed. If everything is working right (notably the vacuum retard side of the can) it will be at about 5º ATDC (which should be the notch in the pulley). If you pull the retard line off the vacuum can at idle, the timing should immediately jump to 7.5º BTDC (you will get a bit more idle speed but don't worry about that right now). Both sides of the vacuum can should hold vacuum if you test it with a little hand vacuum pump.
When all of the centrifical advance + the vacuum advance is in at light load (think of yourself driving 65 mph down a hill) you should see total advance at about 40-42º, but that vacuum advance component will go away as soon as you put your foot in it to get up the other side of the hill.
So don't be concerned. |
http://www.vw-resource.com/timing_discussion.html#dist
| Quote: |
| Note: The SVDA distributor is essentially a centrifugal-advance (009) distributor with a vacuum advance assist to help prevent hesitation in all of those stop-n-go situations in city traffic. The mechanical advance takes over out on the highway in the rpm range of 2000-2500+ (highway speeds in 3rd and 4th gear). At the higher rpm the vacuum signal drops and the mechanical advance is (or should be) "all in". The vacuum only pulls in/advances the timing plate right off idle and through the lower range (not neccesarily in the driveway but under load it does). Once the higher rpms are reached, the vacum advance drops off and the mechanical advance takes over. |
Not saying anyone's right or wrong, just making an observation.
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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johnnypan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Try it and see if Im wrong...Put your timing light on with both hoses connected and check it out..
Vacuum advance on DVDA and SVDA distributors has nothing to do with performance,they advanced the timing when the engine isn't underload to reduce emissions..What Randy in Maine is talking about..base Vw type 1 engine design wont handle 42 degrees advance under load,but it will when not underload..the additional advance will clean up the combustion chamber,leaning the exhaust,creating a cleaner burn...SVDA and DVDA distributors were for emission control..which is why I run a cast iron bosch mechanical,without the cleaner burn more deposits are left on the valve train..upper cylinder lubrication..the EPA doesn't like it but my valves do..
VW resourses is dead wrong,vacuum can and will occur at any engine rpm provided the load requirement for vacuum is met..no load,high rpm high vacuum,heavy load high rpm no vacuum.
vacuum school level two: has to do with vacuum lag,its response is slower than rpm,which is why its so effective in eliminating the throttle response delay on the pict 34...the dreaded dead spot..the mechanical advances and retard based on rpm,the SVDA on rpm and vacuum..during acceleration vacuum holds for bit then decreases combined with the mechanical rise places timing a skosh above what the mechanical only does (for a brief period),eliminating the dead spot.... |
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goober
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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"This goes against everything I have ever read on here about setting timing at max advance."
You have to have everything connected and operating normally to set to max advance. You want to see what the engine is seeing as max.
This is easily seen with my simple 205T vacuum only distributor. Remember, the advancing vacuum pulse to the distributor is venturi vacuum working off the velocity of incoming air through the carb and is working opposite of manifold vacuum. Venturi vacuum advances, the return spring retards it back down.
So when your rpm drops as you climb a steep hill, as you slow, the carbs air velocity will decrease, the vacuum will drop and the timing will retard. |
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andk5591
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:00 am Post subject: |
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OK - man - this is getting way more complicated than it should be - 
OP - do 2 things - #1 get the freaking model number off your distributor THIS IS IMPORTANT AND I HAVE ASKED BEFORE. Its stamped on the metal body - if you dont see it, get a mirror and look on the back side. And then post it along with model of the carb - then there is no question what you have - if you have 2 nipples on the vac can though, its a DVDA. The second thing is a pic of the carb with vacuum connections to the carb shown. So instead of guessing then we will know what you have and if its conencted right. This is NOT rocket science by any means -
If you would have done this right away - it would have been maybe 2 or three responses and you would be done.
And to the rest of us - there are many different distributors - mechanical, vac only, vac/mechanical. They all get timed different ways. And if things are not right, you can have all kinds of goofy crap - for example, I was running a vac only large can on my 65 bug 28PICT1 carb. Was pulling vac at idle because the port into the venturi area was clogged. So - we first need to find out what the OP has, if its a correct match and if its hooked up right - THEN we can figure out whats up - this is diverging and way too much speculation.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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johnnypan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| He could just let it break in some too..fresh engines can run warm.. |
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Joey
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
| #1 get the freaking model number off your distributor THIS IS IMPORTANT AND I HAVE ASKED BEFORE. |
His distributor number is in his signature.
If you notice on the Old Volks Home page that all the distributors that are timed at 5*AFTC the timing is timed with the vacuum hoses connected. Yours being set at 0* TDC with the vacuum hose not connected only means that once timed correctly and the hoses re-connected it should idle at 5* ATDC.
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sb001
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Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
OK - man - this is getting way more complicated than it should be -
OP - do 2 things - #1 get the freaking model number off your distributor THIS IS IMPORTANT AND I HAVE ASKED BEFORE. Its stamped on the metal body - if you dont see it, get a mirror and look on the back side. And then post it along with model of the carb - then there is no question what you have - if you have 2 nipples on the vac can though, its a DVDA. The second thing is a pic of the carb with vacuum connections to the carb shown. So instead of guessing then we will know what you have and if its conencted right. This is NOT rocket science by any means -
If you would have done this right away - it would have been maybe 2 or three responses and you would be done.
And to the rest of us - there are many different distributors - mechanical, vac only, vac/mechanical. They all get timed different ways. And if things are not right, you can have all kinds of goofy crap - for example, I was running a vac only large can on my 65 bug 28PICT1 carb. Was pulling vac at idle because the port into the venturi area was clogged. So - we first need to find out what the OP has, if its a correct match and if its hooked up right - THEN we can figure out whats up - this is diverging and way too much speculation. |
Not only is my distributor model # in my sig line, I also posted it in my second post. Don't act like you're a timing guru on here- I have explained at length why my distributor is different from everyone else's and why I had questions relating to the proper timing of it. And when one poster posts that the vacuum hoses are supposed to be left connected and another posts that they are supposed to be DISconnected or VW resource (a fairly trusted source of info on here if I am not mistaken) says vacuum serves one purpose and someone else posts it serves a completely DIFFERENT purpose, it's no HELP, it just causes more questions. That I have to have answered before I can time the thing properly.
And yeah, different distributors get timed different ways, which with a SVDA distributor running with a DVDA vacuum can is why I have the questions I have. Try READING what I have posted for a change, instead of spitting crap all over the place.
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Joey wrote: |
| Yours being set at 0* TDC with the vacuum hose not connected only means that once timed correctly and the hoses re-connected it should idle at 5* ATDC. |
See this is what I am talking about- OVH says to disconnect and plug the "HOSE" just as you have. This implies ONE HOSE (singular) which would obviously be advance. But I have TWO HOSES. And disconnecting BOTH of them is going to affect the timing differently than just removing ONE.
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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sb001
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Just to humor andk5591, I'll go through all the information I have gathered about my dizzy/vacuum can setup (a lot of it conflicting info, as I have pointed out before) and then I'd like to know exactly how he would time it.
andk5591,
I have a Bosch 113-905-205AE distributor. According to Old Volks Home it came standard on 1970 autosticks:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A1970A
Also according to Old Volks Home description of this distributor, it would be an SVDA based on the fact that it does not give a vacuum retard range, and says to disconnect vacuum HOSE (singular) on timing, indicating a vacuum advance hose only.
According to this chart:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/Bosch_Tune_Up_Parts/Bosch_Tune_Up_Parts.pdf
I have the correct matching 07138 vacuum canister for my AE distributor (scroll down to Bosch Distributor Vaccum Canister Part Numbers section, mine is sixth from bottom on chart- part # 07138 with 837 stamped on the arm.) This vacuum canister is a dual-port canister, meaning two vacuum hoses attached (advance and retard), meaning it typically should be used with a DVDA distributor. Again however, it is the CORRECT matching canister for my distributor.
Old Volks Home says to time my distributor at 0°TDC at idle with vacuum HOSE (again, singular) removed and plugged. But I have TWO hoses (advance and retard.) Several folks on here have posted in the past that you can also time a distributor at max advance (around 30°BTDC at around 3000-3500RPMs.) Some posters say you disconnect and plug the hose (SVDA) or hoses (DVDA) when doing this. Examples:
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
If you are setting the max centrifical advance, you need to remove the vacuum lines from the distributor can. You don't have to plug the lines, for what you are doing.
Then hook them both up and see where the timing goes at correct idle speed. If everything is working right (notably the vacuum retard side of the can) it will be at about 5º ATDC (which should be the notch in the pulley). If you pull the retard line off the vacuum can at idle, the timing should immediately jump to 7.5º BTDC (you will get a bit more idle speed but don't worry about that right now). Both sides of the vacuum can should hold vacuum if you test it with a little hand vacuum pump.
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| glutamodo wrote: |
Usually all DVDA distrutors are meant to be set for their idles with the vacuum hose connected. The real biggie, that the factory books do not mention, is to see how much your CENTRIFUGAL advance gives you when maxed out - you want it to be around 30 degrees total advance. So I would disconnect BOTH advance and retard hoses, plug them off, then rev the engine up to around 3000RPM when the centrifugal should be pegged, and make sure you advance at that point isn't over 30 degrees. |
Some others say you do NOT. Example:
| johnnypan wrote: |
You can do a max timing check by running it at 3k with the vac hoses on...watch the timing mark,when it stabilizes (quits advancing) that means the vacuum signal is full..once again it should be 28 to 32 degrees... |
So, with all this information, how would you time my setup?
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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