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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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 Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:51 am Post subject: Ball Joint Alternatives. |
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With the current quality of ball joints for our bay buses very uncertain and NOS ball joints no where to be found, maybe it's time to consider other alternatives.
Are there any ball joints from different vehicles which may fit or come close to fitting? Thoughts on modifying the arms to accept other styles of ball joints? |
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Ian
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Joined: August 28, 2002
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Location: 713
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:52 am Post subject: |
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MOOG still sells balljoints for bugs and buses, quit playing around with other stuff.
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All your Buses are belong to us.
Love and good roads!
IN LOVING MEMORY OF ROB CRESS 1968-2012 & KEN CRIMMINS 1957-2024 |
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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Ian wrote: |
| MOOG still sells balljoints for bugs and buses, quit playing around with other stuff. |
Oh? Where can I find them for a 68'? |
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12846
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Google the part number.
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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: |
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I can only find it available from Rock Auto. I made a few calls and no one can tell me if it's made in China. They are shipped from Moog UK, the Moog US guys don't have access to it or any of the information. Shipping from RA for one ball joint, $30. More than the BJ itself.
Last edited by LivinInnaVWBus on Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23105
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Ian wrote: |
| MOOG still sells balljoints for bugs and buses, quit playing around with other stuff. |
Moog has recently changed a lot of their manufacturing practices internally for many joints. For modern cars.....much of the materials and manufacturing changes are improvements. For skme older car parts...not always so much. Dont know for busses.
Its worth it to inspect new joints for busses carefully. Just sayin. Ray |
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
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Location: Durango, CO
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: at the beach
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LivinInnaVWBus
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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That article is from 06/2013
I spoke with them about them Lemforders in May of last year. I was going to buy two sets from Nate but he took a closer look and told me they were no good. He said he used to buy the Moog which 'were' good quality, but difficult to find. This was awhile ago, so who knows now. |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
That article is from 06/2013
I spoke with them about them Lemforders in May of last year. I was going to buy two sets from Nate but he took a closer look and told me they were no good. |
OMG - the article is 2 years old.
Did you read the article? The point I got from it is that tou are looking for joints that have machined tops instead of stamped tops. No one in the Western World today makes things like they did 20 years ago. You can buy 10 boxes of an item from someone and 7 will be from one country and 3 another. The accountants and Wall Street make the decisions today, not factories. You'll have to look at them before knowing if they are any good. If someone ships you Lemforders that were made 5 - 10 years ago they will be one design. If you get the boxes next to them that were just made they will be another. Same for MOOG. LEMFORDER MAKES THE MOOG BUS JOINTS.
BTW - I just did an availability check at VW of Germany. They still sell them from VW. About $70 each plus shipping. Probably made by Lemforder because that is who made the VW ball joints. Only thing is will they be an early design or late? Brazil or China. China or UK. Hungary or Vietnam. You have to get them into your hands to know what quality they are.
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Joey
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Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| richparker wrote: |
| There is no uncertainty of quality. Buy the Nakata ball joints, drag link, tie rods and get on with the day. |
The Nakata ball joints in my '79 didn't even last two years.
The ball joints that I installed in my '74 bus back in 2011 are Flennor ball joints and are all still tight and the boots look real good - no cracks or splits. The Nakata ball joints in my '79 that I installed in Sept. 2013 all have play in them and the boots have splits and cracks in them.
I got the Flennor ball joints from CIP.
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Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
That article is from 06/2013
I spoke with them about them Lemforders in May of last year. I was going to buy two sets from Nate but he took a closer look and told me they were no good. |
OMG - the article is 2 years old.
Did you read the article? The point I got from it is that tou are looking for joints that have machined tops instead of stamped tops. No one in the Western World today makes things like they did 20 years ago. You can buy 10 boxes of an item from someone and 7 will be from one country and 3 another. The accountants and Wall Street make the decisions today, not factories. You'll have to look at them before knowing if they are any good. If someone ships you Lemforders that were made 5 - 10 years ago they will be one design. If you get the boxes next to them that were just made they will be another. Same for MOOG. LEMFORDER MAKES THE MOOG BUS JOINTS.
BTW - I just did an availability check at VW of Germany. They still sell them from VW. About $70 each plus shipping. Probably made by Lemforder because that is who made the VW ball joints. Only thing is will they be an early design or late? Brazil or China. China or UK. Hungary or Vietnam. You have to get them into your hands to know what quality they are. |
Actually.....Moog is not made by Lemfoerder. Moog is the drivetrain and suspension division of Federal Mogul.
ZF owns Lemfoerder, Sachs, Boge and a couple of others.
But....your point is correct....and its part of the point....I pointed to earlier. Moog...Federal Mogul is no longer making most of their old style joints....our joints.....anything like they were about 10 years ago.
Same for TRW...which by the way is now owned by ZF as well. Their new build ball joints and tie rod ends have less machine work and looser specs (needed for new cars).....which equals cheaper to manufacture.
Flennor was a German company but opened a major manufacturing center in China in 2009. I disected a pair of Flennor tie rods earlier in the year....they were cheap and I needed the boots.
The design is excellent......the machine work....good. Made in Ch-ermany.......you can tell because of the package and the fact that it days "product of Germany".....a loophole many companies are using in Germany (and its pissing the government off)......to sidestep the manufactured content regulations. They have the bulk of the castings and machine work made in China....and do light assembly, inspection and packaging in Germany.
Its why I noted....as others have.....that brand means nothing anymore. Only reports on performance of a given joint. Ray |
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SGKent
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ray - I am following what Wagenswest wrote about balljoints. My guess is Moog is buying from whomever bids it cheapest to their specs. The Detroit melt down after 2008, and the subsequent hosing of car manufacturer stockholders changed that whole industry.
Here is what Wagenswest wrote: "So the Meyle HD’s that I installed on my van lasted only 300 miles until they had significant up and down play. I then used this comparison exercise to see that the only ball joint that comes even close to the OE is the OE and that would be Lemforder which are currently not available but you can buy them under the name MOOG. 06/2013"
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mlesniak
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Posts: 350
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:40 am Post subject: |
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www.rockauto.com
I always buy from rock auto, they have a lot of brake parts manufactured by modern brands. for example I bought two front disc rotors by Wagner for $20 a piece and they are just perfect!!!!
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
Ray - I am following what Wagenswest wrote about balljoints. My guess is Moog is buying from whomever bids it cheapest to their specs. The Detroit melt down after 2008, and the subsequent hosing of car manufacturer stockholders changed that whole industry.
Here is what Wagenswest wrote: "So the Meyle HD’s that I installed on my van lasted only 300 miles until they had significant up and down play. I then used this comparison exercise to see that the only ball joint that comes even close to the OE is the OE and that would be Lemforder which are currently not available but you can buy them under the name MOOG. 06/2013" |
Its possible they are having some limited run items made by others....but this is a common part number and inventory switch issue......and many times its less of a where and who made it.
Last year when dealling with TRW directly by phone was surprising because I was looking for TRW specific stock products and was, referred to Moog for those items.......because Moog was also stocking some items of TRW that they buy that they dont manufacture any longer......and they noted that TRW is not part of Moog or vica-versa.....but that TRW is owned by ZF which also owns Lemfoerder.
Also since I have currently been doing work for one of Federal Mogul's divisions for the last 6 months.....I have inquired about linkages between Moog, TRW, flennor and other companies.
At one point in time TRW was a component or manufacturing asset of Moog or Federal Mogul.....but was traded away or sold a while back.
All of these companies like to be able to offer a full line of parts as aside from supplying OEM's with one line of parts.....their bread and butter dollars come from supplying FLAPS all over the globe. If they dont have space, tooling or costs
Structure to manufacture one product or another.....they outsource and rebox.
I found this same issue with TRW suspension parts. TRW is still in full business under the ZF company.....but if you order certain ranges of TRW parts.....they are shipped by Moog from Moog warehouses.....but only for older part #s. And....they have Moog technology in them....not TRWs distinctive older technology. Brand new TRW parts for newer cars...say...late 90s and up.....I can get from TRW.....but when they arrive they may list anything from Lemfoerder (some made in India) to TRW to even jointed parts appearing in the occasional ZF box or Boge boxes.....whether thats just a warehousing and boxing difference or an actual manyfacturing difference.....man I have no idea.
Its a mess trying to sort these companies and their products out. Ray |
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79wormwood
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Joined: May 31, 2014
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Location: Spring, TX
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:03 am Post subject: |
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I just came back from the shop. I had been having real issues with my steering. I didn't know what could be wrong as I had changed everything new, from tire rods, to trailing arm, ball joints, center pin and steering box...
It was those damn Nakata or OE ball joints. So hard to turn when freed from the rods and in the air. Its ridiculous and really not funny as it could have killed me on the freeway when it wouldn't correct.
I understand bad quality, I understand that no one is perfect. But these ball joints could have cost me my life. Nakata or OE are trash in my book. I have no respect for them.
Last edited by 79wormwood on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:28 am Post subject: |
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A lot of this probably comes from a swap in either manufacturing management...or manufacturing location.
This is not simply saying they are now being made in a third world country by children at gunpoint. They may bot be. Its streamlining....and in many cases.....lean manufacturing gone awry.
In years past....parts for particular applications. ...say....like the VW bus.....were made with particular specifications to match their characteristics. In this case...low load weight in the front end, low steering leveragd....and no power steering.
The bus joints need to be precise in tolerance....meaning no excessive play....but are rather unique in the fact that they require less turning torque.
This is actually one thong they have in common with modern car tie rod ends. Because of heavily sensor controlled power steering....new tie rod ends must have low turning torque and very even turning torque from tie rod to tie rod in a set or it throws off the steering.
This is the exact opposite of what most light in the front end ACVWs require for tie rods because of the lack of multi link control to control excessive movement.
Now back to the ball joints. Modern car ball joints.....with power steering, strut suspension and multilink front ends....need to be very stiff as compared to beam type ACVW ball joints to control the front end. In numerous parameters they have much tighter specs....like spring tension and cup contact area on the top of the ball.
Its common as manufacturing MANAGEMENT changes......for lean manufacturing process engineers.....with no real knowledge of the end user appli application differences......to manufacture all similar parts that can be.....with the same higher/tighter tolerance.....making the assumption that since its higher tolerance and better process and saves them money all around.....it must be an improvement for any end user.
As an example....I know the ball joints on my 412 are tighter than you could ever use on a bus or bug with beam suspension. You need a long wrench to move them at all in any axis and they stay this way for 10s of thousands of miles. When they start getting loose....and easy to move....it correlates to slop in the suspension. But...its strut suspension with lots of leverage points. Doesnt help you....but i see this crap happen in plants wvery week. Ray |
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