TheSamba.com :: View topic - Homemade Turbo 1600 Single Port recipe, DYNO'ED, NOW T3/T4!!

Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:25 am

Hi folks,

Not sure why I haven't posted here before but here goes.
I posted my combo and results on other sites before.
I built this combination back in March '07.
I beat it like a rented mule when I have it out and it's been going strong ever since.
Then again, I'm VERY meticulous with oil changes, valve adjustments, fueling and timing control.
Yes, you can run 18 PSI of boost through a STOCK 1600 single port successfully.
No, I'm not a mechanical engineer.
Just another VW nut like you all who got a wild hair to "see what I could do".

Here is my combo, results and pictures.
Enjoy!

The engine:
Your basic budget rebuild 1600 single-stock crank, rods, 4 dowel stock weight flywheel, stock cam and lifters, aluminum pushrods, rebuilt stock heads with single hi-rev springs (MUST HAVE!), 1.25 rockers, swivel feet adjusters and bolt-together rocker shafts (for peace of mind).
Turbo:
T25 from a '95-99 Mitsubishi Eclipse from Ebay used. Rebuild kit from gpopshop.com including Carbon Seal.
Boost control is by the stock internal wastegate controlled by a GRAINGER valve (that allows me super fast boost rise and spot-on 18 lbs. boost on a 10-12 lb. wastegate).
Carburetion:
390 Holley used from Ebay (rare dual line model, easier to tune!).
Jetting: 52 primaries and 66 secondaries.
Lightest spring in the vac. canister
Boost reference 1.5 power valve (easy to do with JB Weld!).
50cc accelerator pump and huge squirter (drilled out by me).
Electric choke even works!!!
Fuel System:
Holley Red, no regulator.
Ignition:
009 set at 30 degrees total timing (NOT locked!).
MSD 6A box and BTM module set at 1.25 degrees of retard per lb. of boost resulting in approx. 10 degress at full boost.
Taylor wires, blue coil, stock plugs.
Engine monitoring:
Auto Meter boost and A/F gauge (used from Craigslist) using a Denso heated O2 sensor, Summit racing tach with shiftlight.
Exhaust:
2.5" bends and flanges from local auto parts store and Dynomax stainless muffler (straight through but VERY QUIET!) used from Craigslist. Muffler unbolts in about 1 minute and wide open sounds amazing.
Sounds like a BIG CC motor and boost response is better.
The header (finished 12/28/07) is homemade using a previous baja header that WAS on the buggy (ugly but it worked), a ding-and-dent special from Mid-America and tubing from my local muffler shop (about $75 total as you see it).
Let's just say the new header works MUCH better than the old one.
Incredible improvement in structural integrity and flow!

This combo has been running successfully since spring '07.
Only valve adjustments and oil changes since.
It averages 23-25 MPG with my HEAVY foot......take it from me, boosting is ADDICTIVE!
I couldn't be happier.
Just driving around town, the motor behaves just like a smooth stocker but boost is always a downshift away.

It will build boost starting about 2500 rpm AND, courtesy of the GRAINGER valve, it'll ramp up FAST to 15 lbs. BY 4500 and 18 if I stretch the motor to 5000.
Let's just say it'll bury the speedo at will!
93 octane pump gas, by the way.

It starts up perfect hot or cold (choke works GREAT!) and runs stupendous.

Reliable, ignorant power from a beloved 1600 single.

I mortally wounded a stock swingaxle tranny in July (spun third and fourth hubs).
So a monster swing was built by Archway Imports in St. Louis.
Comparable to a "Super Pro Street", it has every conceivable mod including 3.88's.....I HIGHLY recommend 3.88's, they load the motor nicely for building boost, make first gear usable (!) and really make driving the car MUCH more of a pleasure.
Remember, you don't need deep gears for a turbo....no need to spin the bejeezus out of a turbo motor.

That's it in a nutshell.

Enjoy the pics!
First is of the new header, tacked and mocked-up.
Second is of the finished product after it's shakedown cruise.

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Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:48 am

Nicely done, though I think the stock internals would be the weak point, especially with 18lbs.

Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:58 am

Any plans to dyno this engine?

What would you estimate the HP and TQ to be?

Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:55 am

Bashr52 wrote: Nicely done, though I think the stock internals would be the weak point, especially with 18lbs.

I am constantly surprised at how well the stock parts stay together.

Then again, I have the jetting spot-on, the MSD takes care of retard when on boost and I limit my RPM's (4500 98% of the time).
Those are the three primary issues with turbocharging reliably.

Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:59 am

Rowroy wrote: Any plans to dyno this engine?

What would you estimate the HP and TQ to be?

I've toyed with putting the little thing on a local chassis dyno.
There are a couple very close by.
Maybe this spring/summer.

Plans for the near future include draining the tank, adding 110 octane and slowly adding timing but keeping the same boost.
I feel certain the motor will respond REAL well with more timing.

HP and TQ?
Whew. I'm just not sure.
HP maybe 120-130? At the flywheel, that is.
I've had some folks tell me it COULD be making 140-150 but I feel that's a stretch.
TQ? I have no idea but it feels REAL strong!
Not bad for a stock single port 1600. :wink:

Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:45 pm

One thing nice about a Buggy.....lots of room :lol: Nice by the way.

Mark

Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:47 pm

73 KAFER wrote: One thing nice about a Buggy.....lots of room :lol: Nice by the way.

Mark

You got that right!
I wouldn't have ever attempted such an experiment/project in my Beetle.

I can practically pull up a chair and work on it. :lol:

Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:58 pm

first major motor work i ever did was heads and cylinders on a baja bug, i just sat on a milkcrate behind the car and did it.

Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:51 pm

Hey folks,

The "1600 single that won't die" is still going strong, not using oil and sounds like a 2332!

Today I did something I've been wanting to try for a LONG time: RACE FUEL.
I went down to the local race fuel depot and picked up 10 gallons of 110 leaded.
5 gallons of 110 and 5 gallons of 93 later, I'm on the road.

Good God......
I twisted the timing retard back from 1.5/lb. of boost to .5!
Incredible.
I KNEW it wanted more timing but I couldn't with the straight 93 I had been running.

The resulting approx. 102 octane can withstand much more than I'm throwing at it right now.

BUT.....our weather went to hell in a bucket within about 4 hours: from 72 to 30 and heavy snow!?!?!?!
Welcome to St. Louis, MO ladies and gentlemen.

The next warm spell, I plan to bump the boost back up to 18 (It was there before but made me sweat a LOT on pump fuel) and maybe even add a little more timing.
FYI-I'm at 22.5 degrees at 15 lbs. boost on the blend. On 93, I was 10 degrees total!

Come on spring!

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:51 pm

how did you run the oil lines

Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:08 pm

bigpapakamen wrote: how did you run the oil lines

I used one of the basic tapped oil pump covers for supply to the turbo.
The turbo drainback goes to a nipple I welded to the 3/4 valve cover.

It's performed flawlessly.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:03 pm

so what would be your total cost?? if you dont mind me asking.

i'm HIGHLY considering your design/parts!

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:19 pm

joetron wrote: so what would be your total cost?? if you dont mind me asking.

i'm HIGHLY considering your design/parts!

HMMMMM :shock: very interesting setup...... I like it

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:49 pm

Nice job. My friend did a real junkyard turbo conversion on a mostly used 1600 engine (new rings and bearings). At Glamis when he hit second gear it would pull away from my rail (15.5 second 1/4 mile) like I was standing still. Have you thought about wrapping the header. It ran for about four years including road trips from Phoenix to Guadalajara Mexico Glamis and Buttercup before he traded it for a VW 16 v engine. Have fun with it.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:24 pm

perrib wrote: Nice job. My friend did a real junkyard turbo conversion on a mostly used 1600 engine (new rings and bearings). At Glamis when he hit second gear it would pull away from my rail (15.5 second 1/4 mile) like I was standing still. Have you thought about wrapping the header. It ran for about four years including road trips from Phoenix to Guadalajara Mexico Glamis and Buttercup before he traded it for a VW 16 v engine. Have fun with it.

Trust me, I have thought about wrapping that header almost every time I eyeball the back side of the buggy.
That has to help immensely.
I'm losing a LOT of exhaust heat as it stands.

I THINK I can score the wrap at work for little or nothing so it's just a matter of making a few phone calls.
I'll start working on that asap.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:31 pm

joetron wrote: so what would be your total cost?? if you dont mind me asking.

i'm HIGHLY considering your design/parts!

I'll try to compile a list of what I spent in the coming day or two and post it.
It's FAR from what most places are charging for "kits" but I do have a LOT of time in it.

But the end result has been 100% reliable and an absolute blast to own.
BY FAR the funnest ride I've ever owned, bar none.

Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:06 pm

MO Turbo Manx wrote: FYI-I'm at 22.5 degrees at 15 lbs. boost on the blend. On 93, I was 10 degrees total!
Why are you retarding the timing so far back? you only need to be in the 24* range, with 93 you should be easy running 15 lbs boost with 23 24* . Your killing the engine pulling it back past 20*

The only reason to pull more back if your getting detonation . I run at 22.5 to 24 in all boost levels with the same fuel of 95. I bet 93 will work just fine. I don't know your engine but the timing should be in the same ball park and the fuel is the one to change for more boost.

What are you using for boost retard?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:02 am

seabeebuggy wrote: What are you using for boost retard?
MO Turbo Manx wrote: the MSD takes care of retard when on boost

:wink:

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:33 am

:? thanks :lol:

Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:46 pm

seabeebuggy wrote: MO Turbo Manx wrote: FYI-I'm at 22.5 degrees at 15 lbs. boost on the blend. On 93, I was 10 degrees total!
Why are you retarding the timing so far back? you only need to be in the 24* range, with 93 you should be easy running 15 lbs boost with 23 24* . Your killing the engine pulling it back past 20*

The only reason to pull more back if your getting detonation . I run at 22.5 to 24 in all boost levels with the same fuel of 95. I bet 93 will work just fine. I don't know your engine but the timing should be in the same ball park and the fuel is the one to change for more boost.

What are you using for boost retard?

The reason I went so heavy on retard is I would go into light detonation on HOT summer days on the highway if I laid into it and stayed there for a decent amount of time.
Not racing of course. 8) :wink:

Maybe I was giving up some power but better safe than sorry with cast pistons and rings, stock bottom end, etc..