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Sun May 10, 2009 1:19 pm

Eric, Sorry. Your are not correct and Karmann made indeed the last cars...
About the "kit" : as forseen by the VW staff , The VW spare parts service could provide you ( not unlimited :cry: ) parts to repair damadged hebmuller. Each part that was made at Hebmuller got a spare part number and was availeble.
It is unclear how much type 14A cars are made....how many at Hebmuller is another part of the question. :roll:
I hope that I can find one day the answer on those questions and other about hebmullers.

Best regards.

Sun May 10, 2009 5:23 pm

I have seen hebs from '49, '50, '51. Never from '52. Rogers said his car was the only '51 ever made. Then would that make '52 an entire year off then in '53 they made only one. Clone, tribute, recreation just get a real one.

Sun May 10, 2009 5:32 pm

horatiocaine wrote: I have seen hebs from '49, '50, '51. Never from '52. Rogers said his car was the only '51 ever made. Then would that make '52 an entire year off then in '53 they made only one. Clone, tribute, recreation just get a real one.

There is 3 reistered heb from 52 and 1 53 in the heb registry
http://karmann1952.de/html/hebmuller_register.html

Claude

Sun May 10, 2009 6:16 pm

I will revisit the registry. I checked it out. Registry states one made in fifty one, but four are registered. I take it all with grain of salt.
Thanks

Sun May 10, 2009 6:59 pm

thebucket wrote: peter schepens wrote: HALLO? Kai
Quote: They would number them, starting where the old Hebs ended, and make them with the oval dash.. So basically continue the production as where Hebmuller left it????

And wich car is then the last one made at the hebmuller plant. :roll: :?:
Greets. I know of one pretty close. You know him too Peter. I hope he speaks up. His car would blow this thread up. 8)

I was thinking the same thing and wondered why he hadnt spoken up yet

Sun May 10, 2009 8:22 pm

Thanks Peter, for the info on the work by Karmann

So I can go on the fact that Karmann did build up the remaining "kits" after Hebmueller was out of the picture.

Do you agree that the final kits were from the last 1950 shipment to Hebmueller.?? (This is my opinion)

If so the only way the 53 could be an oval would be if basically only Heb built parts were left and the split kit parts had been taken back, leaving the last car to be oval based for the basic body. This would make it into a one off special rather than a normal Heb.

Given what happened to Hebmueller and the fact that the last few were built spasmodically and over several years, I wouldn't base much on body number or vin number order for the last ones made. The only number with any dating value would be the year built date on the tag.

Eric

Mon May 11, 2009 10:50 pm

Moderator note:
Some "Russell" posts were removed, let's stay on topic. :)

Tue May 12, 2009 10:14 am

West Coast Auto Craft wrote: Robs '52s wrote: johnshenry wrote: azmodela wrote: West Coast Auto Craft wrote: We started with a 1953, all matching numbers, oval window sedan

Was wondering if that was the one at KP or not. I think it was stated previously that it (the one at KP) was sold already, was wondering if that was the "phantom replica" or not....

From West Coast Auto Crafts post to me it sounds like the one at KP is the only one and is probably not even for sale. Everything else was just hear say.

Roger will be releasing information at www.hebsite.com soon regarding possible purchasing opportunities for this car and others.

hey chris any chance we my got some pics of the progress or we just gonna have to wait till its done?

Wed May 13, 2009 6:19 am

germanstyle wrote: West Coast Auto Craft wrote: Robs '52s wrote: johnshenry wrote: azmodela wrote: West Coast Auto Craft wrote: We started with a 1953, all matching numbers, oval window sedan

Was wondering if that was the one at KP or not. I think it was stated previously that it (the one at KP) was sold already, was wondering if that was the "phantom replica" or not....

From West Coast Auto Crafts post to me it sounds like the one at KP is the only one and is probably not even for sale. Everything else was just hear say.

Roger will be releasing information at www.hebsite.com soon regarding possible purchasing opportunities for this car and others.

hey chris any chance we my got some pics of the progress or we just gonna have to wait till its done?

I cant post anything without Rogers permission. I will ask him if he wants to at this point. I know that he is getting ready to post some information on his website soon.

Thu May 21, 2009 3:13 am

I have been watching the Hebmuller Replica saga…Roger Dean price of $90,000 is no doubt high and many may think twice before buying.
But on the other hand it is good idea to remember Ford and Taylor way to cost reducing, making one and only product in large numbers to reduce unit cost.
It is easier to amortize big developing costs and over heads when you have a mass production situation and Roger Deans car is the opposite.
Therefore it follows that a hand made car tends to be very expensive.
As you can see all the emotional issues are removed from this equation.
On the other hand when we compare Hebmuller SA car with Roger Deans some figures do not ad up.
Hebmuller SA take about 6 months to complete a car (2 per year)
They are located in Uruguay (they used to make them in Australia before but to reduce costs they moved )
Their cars are made using Split Window cars as donors.
Parts are not stamped but fabricated due to the fact that it is impossible to justify making dies for such a small production runs.
They have grooved bumper bars, 16 inch wheels, original Petri steering wheel, VW 1100 CC 25 HP engines and crash box gear boxes.
And the best part is the price (US $30,000) 1/3 cheaper ( I got my car about 18 months ago therefore the price may be different)
The funny thing here is that Roger Dean started the ball rolling by approaching Hebmuller SA in Uruguay some time ago I belive he even sent blue prints as well as a lid to replicate.

Thu May 21, 2009 3:51 am

Welcome to the forum.
Can you post some picts of your car?

Thanks .Peter

Fri May 22, 2009 2:52 pm

My name is Tony and 3 years ago I oredered a Hebmuller Replica from Hebmuller SA in Uruguay.
I had to wait about a year for it but it was worthwile, it came without hood frame (Got it made here in Japan).
I looked around but most body shops used either fibre glass or they were not based on a Split as this one
I understand they started making them in Australia and later on they moved to South America.

Roger Dean seem to belive collectors will rush and buy his Hebmuller only because he got permission from VW and from the Hebmuller family. Here in Japan we do not pay attention to such marketing tecniques, we are pragmatic and we value tradition and provenance.

Tony

Sat May 23, 2009 11:48 pm

What kind of idiot would spend 90K on a 'new' vw kit-car?

Sun May 24, 2009 5:06 pm

I make stamped and hand made parts for a living, this is what I do day in and day out, I make dies, some of them complex, we make cutting dies, deep draw dies, etc.etc...blah.blah.blah...somebody please explain to me how a "beetle like" body can cost $90,000...maybe I just do not know what the hell I am talking about, but I do not see how this car body can cost $90,000.....maybe I should start charging more for my BD deluxe bodies.. :? :? :? :? just my humble opinion......

Sun May 24, 2009 8:29 pm

Gerson wrote: I make stamped and hand made parts for a living, this is what I do day in and day out, I make dies, some of them complex, we make cutting dies, deep draw dies, etc.etc...blah.blah.blah...somebody please explain to me how a "beetle like" body can cost $90,000...maybe I just do not know what the hell I am talking about, but I do not see how this car body can cost $90,000.....maybe I should start charging more for my BD deluxe bodies.. :? :? :? :? just my humble opinion......

Its not just the sheet metal body thats $90K, that price reflects a turnkey complete authentic high end restoration, performed by a proven well respected shop with top talent servicing mostly higher end customers whom generally demand the very best restoration work available.

WCA is also here in the US, not in South America where you are, where there are substantially more regulations and much higher overhead that would make most folks head spin trying to manage, plus a whole range of other costs involved in operating a fully integrated coachbuilding shop, its not just a metal fab operation.

If you've read along so far, there have been a range of opinions but the numbers don't lie, they add up fairly quick when a pedigree shop produces a product like this, and not everyone understands nor likes to understand what it truly costs a high end company to pull together a factory quality product with such fine attention to detail.

It was mentioned previously that if a shop could pump these out between $30K-$40K they might sell, but in reality by the time you acquire a suitable early oval chassis with all the correct components needing as little as possible other resto work (good luck on that), and then acquire the $15K+ Heb unique sheet metal, then competently integrate that metalwork similar to how it was originally done, before you even hit primer you are at $30K and likely then some. After that there is of course the paint, mechanicals, engine, upholstery, reassembly, and lets not forget that rather complex Heb convertible top which is a work of art all by itself. Figure in a little profit and the numbers add up fairly easily.

The $90K is a daunting number for many no question, I guess you could look at the area of your specialty and say yes that $15K+ for a Heb sheet metal kit sounds pricey based on what you do and where you happen to make it. But there again its only by the grace of a dedicated enthusiast in Germany who decided for mostly personal reasons to spend money he would likely never get back to make the precision press tooling needed. Most businesses would look at something like this project and know in two minutes they would never see a return on investment on the tooling costs.

Many operations make decisions regularly to make something happen knowing full well up front they will never make back what they invest, the same goes for KSR making vert decklids which I still doubt will ever produce a return on investment, but efforts like these aren't always about making money, it can instead be all about challenge, achievement, committment, and making a notable contribution to the hobby.

Sun May 24, 2009 9:02 pm

Its not a "high end authentic high end restoration", if the resulting car wasn't what they started with (an oval). It's a recreation of something, using a body of a later vintage. At best, it is "replica", or "model", not a restoration. As I stated earlier, using split era bodies would be MUCH closer to an authentic recreation, and, IMO, more worth of note and high price if done right.

To be sure, the logistics are different in Uruguay, but if they are pulling off what is purported, with a similar level of craftsmanship (remains to be seen), its a no brainer. Even if it cost you 10 grand to import one to the US, you would be better off in the end. A for more sound investment, and all the charm of the HEeb profile.....

Sun May 24, 2009 9:06 pm

I guess being knee deep in two restorations at the moment, I'm not getting where anyone thinks they could sell this car complete for $30K - $40K?

Some assumed dollar figures are;

1. All of the body panels from Europe are $17K approximately.
2. A base split/early oval to base it on $10K - $15K. And remember, the more complete ones are pricier. If you don't buy a complete base car, you are spending a lot of money on parts.
3. Find a body guy willing to cut this split/oval up and align all of these heb panels that he's never seen before. - $10K (No idea if this is low or high)
4. Now you need side heb glass .... Not sure $1K
5. Heb wood bows - $1750 - Current ad
6. Body and paint - $10K (Total Guess)
7. Upholstery and Convertible Top ($8K)
8. New rubber parts throughout ($2K)
9. New wiring harness ($750)
10. Parts budget for missing/worn parts replacement ($4K)
11. Chrome ($2K)

I am at $65,750 with a $10K base car? You could cut some corners I'm sure, but could you cut this in half??? I don't know. And as with most quick estimates, you can assume I am missing a lot of stuff here..... Just my two cents....

Sun May 24, 2009 9:34 pm

Brezelwerks wrote:
Its not just the sheet metal body thats $90K, that price reflects a turnkey complete authentic high end restoration, performed by a proven well respected shop with top talent servicing mostly higher end customers whom generally demand the very best restoration work available.

WCA is also here in the US, not in South America where you are, where there are substantially more regulations and much higher overhead that would make most folks head spin trying to manage, plus a whole range of other costs involved in operating a fully integrated coachbuilding shop, its not just a metal fab operation.

If you've read along so far, there have been a range of opinions but the numbers don't lie, they add up fairly quick when a pedigree shop produces a product like this, and not everyone understands nor likes to understand what it truly costs a high end company to pull together a factory quality product with such fine attention to detail.

It was mentioned previously that if a shop could pump these out between $30K-$40K they might sell, but in reality by the time you acquire a suitable early oval chassis with all the correct components needing as little as possible other resto work (good luck on that), and then acquire the $15K+ Heb unique sheet metal, then competently integrate that metalwork similar to how it was originally done, before you even hit primer you are at $30K and likely then some. After that there is of course the paint, mechanicals, engine, upholstery, reassembly, and lets not forget that rather complex Heb convertible top which is a work of art all by itself. Figure in a little profit and the numbers add up fairly easily.

The $90K is a daunting number for many no question, I guess you could look at the area of your specialty and say yes that $15K+ for a Heb sheet metal kit sounds pricey based on what you do and where you happen to make it. But there again its only by the grace of a dedicated enthusiast in Germany who decided for mostly personal reasons to spend money he would likely never get back to make the precision press tooling needed. Most businesses would look at something like this project and know in two minutes they would never see a return on investment on the tooling costs.

Many operations make decisions regularly to make something happen knowing full well up front they will never make back what they invest, the same goes for KSR making vert decklids which I still doubt will ever produce a return on investment, but efforts like these aren't always about making money, it can instead be all about challenge, achievement, committment, and making a notable contribution to the hobby.

=D> =D>

Sun May 24, 2009 9:54 pm

johnshenry wrote: Its not a "high end authentic high end restoration", if the resulting car wasn't what they started with (an oval). It's a recreation of something, using a body of a later vintage. At best, it is "replica", or "model", not a restoration. As I stated earlier, using split era bodies would be MUCH closer to an authentic recreation, and, IMO, more worth of note and high price if done right.

To be sure, the logistics are different in Uruguay, but if they are pulling off what is purported, with a similar level of craftsmanship (remains to be seen), its a no brainer. Even if it cost you 10 grand to import one to the US, you would be better off in the end. A for more sound investment, and all the charm of the HEeb profile.....

It never mattered what this car is or isn't, the only point here is what it approximately costs for (restoration or authentic custom work) being performed by a high end shop, and those costs are very likely fairly competitive at this pedigree level in the vintage car hobby in the US.

Buyers or collectors at this level would be acquiring these as basically one off pieces of art, for what they are, rather than (knowing full well) what they are not. Therefore trying to traditionally determine an actual market value is basically illogical as well as irrelevant, regardless actually of how closely they just happen to resemble an original.

Klassic Fab/Gerson is in Columbia, and while they are certainly talented metal fabricators, far as I know they aren't a full turnkey high end restoration/custom shop. I'm really looking forward to seeing one of these WCA/Dean Hebs, and knowing the reputation these guys have its not a stretch by any means to expect a stunning result. Its probably too tight for a finished one to be at the Classic this year but I hope to see one there next year when I'm there.

Mon May 25, 2009 4:02 am

I read that Roger Dean started the ball rolling by contacting Hebmuller SA in Uruguay, that would have been the best option for the 4 parties involved (Roger Dean, the german firm making the stamped parts, Hebmuller SA and the buyers)

After all here in Japan bringing a product to the market means making what the customer want , at the price he can buy and with the quality he expects.