TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue May 05, 2009 3:36 pm

johnshenry wrote: mrsherbie wrote: I understand a replica speedster, that you can buy and build and get on the road for under £20k, compared to buying a real speedster for £80-100k+ so the replica offers something that used to be say half the cost, (before speedsters went through the roof in the last 2 or so years!) and is currently closer to a quarter! of the cost of a real one. And if a replica Heb was half the price of a real one, or even 3/4 I would get that too. But Hebs do come up for sale reasonably often and around half the price of this replica ? or am I getting confused about what is being offered? (probably :lol:) I know it is metal though so that is better than fibreglass. I think ? Because, we call those Wizards over here :lol:

That is the point that is missed in posts above. If it does cost $90k to make a replica (and I doubt that) that the market values at 30-40k, the car won't sell.... and that is what I would put my money on. Superior metal work and newsworthiness aside, and oval based Heb replica is still not a Heb and will never fetch the prices of a real one.

Its really just rhetoric at this point guessing what the market value might be for these reproduction/reissue quality Hebs. Its also a bit putting words in WCA's mouth suggesting they are trying to compete against prevailing market prices for original Hebs, unless you know for certain otherwise. Even then, even if WCA's turnkey asking prices for these is @$90K, I can't seem to recall in the last several years when any freshly restored concours level Heb was available for anywhere near $90K, anyone?

WCA's business focus is on being a concours level restoration shop, nothing like the setup of a Beck Speedster, whom are off building small batches of fiberglass replicas trying to compete against a half dozen other retail replica car makers. Until we know for certain otherwise, WCA is simply just demonstrating what is possible today, pulling together whats been available and leveraging what talent resides at their shop. The rest is basically parts + labor, or maybe cost-plus given their pedigree, nothing unusual. With just simple math on what a restoration like this would cost, paying a shop like this one you just won't put you too far from $90K doing things right, and suggesting otherwise is just pure fantasy.

Its all upside for WCA at this point even if these don't sell. Part of me would of enjoyed seeing Lenny or Buddy debut one of these first at one of the big shows, but that aside I'm completely supportive of this notable achievement.

Tue May 05, 2009 4:46 pm

For what it's worth, I heard from several people that saw this car at the Merced show and Kelly Park that it was very nicely done. Supposedly, the bodywork was high end.

I have to agree after putting two cars through bodywork and paint during body off restos that it would be tough to buy $16,000 worth of sheet metal from Europe and get a whole car put together for 40K unless you knew some really talented body guys to donate their time for nothing.

However, if there are 20 qualified buyers for Hebs around the globe right now willing to spend the money, there aren't enough real cars to fill the demand. That's what you saw in the 356 crowd, and now there are A LOT of fiberglass 356's running around.

Tue May 05, 2009 5:06 pm

No doubt WCA's work is high end. I think the flaw in the logic here however is the assumption that only they, or Lenny, or Buddy can produce high end body work, and that their soup to nuts rates are the prevailing ones and set the market. They do not. Body work is body work, paint is paint and more or less, upholstery is upholstery. There are countless good body and interior shops, that with the right guidance through the "VW specific" stuff, and hand holding by a committed owner, a top notch resto ("councours" is an overused term and virtually meaningless in the VW hobby since there are no concours events that regularly host and judge VWs) can be attained for significantly less that the "drop it off with Buddy and give me a call when it is done" figure.

The value that the Lennys and the Buddy bring, is the VW specific knowledge and the service for those people who just want to drop off the car and bring a check book when they get the call that it is ready. Not to say that is all they do, but it is probably the base of their business, at least Lenny's.

To someone, like me, who will only pay someone to do something I fundamentally can't do, and is willing to toil away for years at a time to achieve a no-compromise restoration, the "finished" total is way, way less than the one shop did it all price. No, I won't be able to shoot a nice 2 stage urethane and make it look flawless, or maybe to cloth seat covers (although I recently did and am pretty happy with them), but ferreting out panels, dollying, replacing panels and do the countless hours of mechanical reassembly, wiring, etc, I'll do myself. Granted it was 10 years ago now, but I think I have right at about 10-11k in my oval, and half of that was paint and body I paid for.

Tue May 05, 2009 6:45 pm

ha ha this is funny about time someone posted this....

my work builds those. west coast auto craft. crazy story behind it.......

Roger Deen is the guy funding all this. he used to be a historian for vw and now he want to take over where vw left off with these hebs. he went over to Germany and got permission from vw and heb to start remaking these. the VIN's will even continue.

in 1953 vw only made one heb. it was exported from the factory and then lost. completely disappeared. when Roger went to germany to get permission he got the VIN tags and paperwork for that 53. crazy

we get asked all day, "is the decklid fiberglass?" NO its Metal, stamped out of the original dies and press. every little detail is to vw specks, even the flaws.

we are selling them for around 90K running. pricey but the one at kelley park is sold and we have a list for more.

now you know the facts, stop talkin shit

fun as hell to build though!

Tue May 05, 2009 6:51 pm

So Roger got the original dies and press from Hebmueller?

Tue May 05, 2009 6:54 pm

no we get them shipped over.

Tue May 05, 2009 7:36 pm

Thanks for finally chiming in, congrats on the first sale.

Tue May 05, 2009 8:01 pm

I think the dash/windshield frame/front cowl/inner fender well/hinge post portion is from a 56 oval convertible.

What pieces are actually made from dies?

Tue May 05, 2009 11:13 pm

decklid, rear cowl, fenders, and hood are pressed. the rest is made from a year correct bug. custom fab the doors and convertible mechanism.

Tue May 05, 2009 11:50 pm

More detailled photos would be welcomed.. :wink:

So to make this a Zwitter or early Oval was cut up?

Wed May 06, 2009 12:33 am

Hebster52 wrote:

So to make this a Zwitter or early Oval was cut up?

When you take a good look at the inner panels at the back you can see it is not the a zwitter or early oval!!!

:twisted: ET

Wed May 06, 2009 12:44 am

69volkswagen wrote: the VIN's will even continue.

now you know the facts, stop talkin shit

These 2 lines dont go together for me or make any sense. But I will put it down to the usual Samba Europe/US cultural divide trap that I still dont fully understand :lol:

So really it is a brand new car, that is an american excellent metal replica of a Heb, , but not a Volkswagen or a Heb. In fact its a a chopped up oval for the price of a 50's, or even brand new Porsche. I guess the value is really just to US custom/non vw buyers then who have no patience or idea where to look for a real one, because I dont see any history or provenance in any brand new vehicle to demand genuine Heb, speedster (or brand new porsche!) money from the European vw or classic collectors circle.

I am with John Henry, the majority of Europeans who restore their early/ rare cars are not cheque book work so dont cost even come close to 90k here. That is only tiny minority of lucky few! And I admire them as they work hard to pay for those cars and hire the best people!
But for me, that new car would be throwing 90k on a bonfire because you wont see it back compared to a real one, so you have to be the sort of person who has the money and mentality not to care about that and just wants to order a unique but at the same time 'off the shelf classic looking' vehicle, and I know there are always a few people who want to and can pay for 'instant new classics' although very few in Europe but it seems to me to be a far more common thing in USA?

And stamping them with 'continuing vins' seems like a farce and verging on criminal actually? and wont be worth the metal it is stamped on anyway, except to maybe future naive buyers who could get their hands severely burned. Something that at least does not happen with speedster reps.

Here is a real Heb that we have been discussing only recently:
http://auto.local.ch/de/d/qmkGjefYLh39MGT-CuPTpA?showTags=false

Good luck though, I really dont mean to be negative about it as it is a unique and clever custom project it is really genuinely impressive! and it will be very cool to see the first one finished! :D

I guess when something like this gets posted on a forum used by owners of genuine old cars this opinion here is obvious, because it is not the buyer market anyway. Maybe there is a US Custom car or kitcar forum that would really like it though?

Wed May 06, 2009 1:53 am

69volkswagen wrote: no we get them shipped over.

OK....so the decklid and cowl is from Dirk's dies then?

Wed May 06, 2009 3:14 am

SplitPersonality wrote: 69volkswagen wrote: no we get them shipped over.

OK....so the decklid and cowl is from Dirk's dies then?

He said that they are using the original Heb dies and press.

Wed May 06, 2009 4:30 am

69volkswagen wrote: he went over to Germany and got permission from vw and heb to start remaking these. the VIN's will even continue.

VW has not to be asked if you convert any of their old cars to what ever and they will never give permition to any backyard company to continue building any of their products.
To who at Hebmuller he spoke? The company does not exist since 56 years and everyone who was involved is dead and gone.

69volkswagen wrote:
when Roger went to germany to get permission he got the VIN tags and paperwork for that 53. crazy

Yes, crazy. From who he got something? From VW? They surely kept that for him since 1953. Or from the dead Hebmuller Brothers? They maybe dropped it sailing by on the Black Pearl.

69volkswagen wrote:
its Metal, stamped out of the original dies and press.

To my understanding the original dies do not exist anymore. Why should had Mr. Hortig made new ones?

69volkswagen wrote:
pricey but the one at kelley park is sold and we have a list for more.

Well, for that amount just people with too much money and too less taste and knowledge would buy a Heb replica instead of a real one.

Wed May 06, 2009 4:53 am

usariemen wrote:
"they will never give permition to any backyard company to continue building any of their products"

"Or from the dead Hebmuller Brothers? They maybe dropped it sailing by on the Black Pearl"

:lol: :lol: Now I was thinking along similar lines but trying to be polite :lol: VW dont give anyone anything that has any involvement with their company in any way shape or form and never has, wakey wakey USA I thought all you guys knew this already?! :lol:

Three cheers for Usariemen, and the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! :lol:

Wed May 06, 2009 5:46 am

If he does have the original dies, perhaps he could stamp out some proper front quarters for early bugs. They'd be more useful than Heb clones.

Wed May 06, 2009 6:06 am

mrsherbie wrote: 69volkswagen wrote: the VIN's will even continue.

now you know the facts, stop talkin shit

These 2 lines dont go together for me or make any sense. But I will put it down to the usual Samba Europe/US cultural divide trap that I still dont fully understand :lol:

So really it is a brand new car, that is an american excellent metal replica of a Heb, , but not a Volkswagen or a Heb. In fact its a a chopped up oval for the price of a 50's, or even brand new Porsche. I guess the value is really just to US custom/non vw buyers then who have no patience or idea where to look for a real one, because I dont see any history or provenance in any brand new vehicle to demand genuine Heb, speedster (or brand new porsche!) money from the European vw or classic collectors circle.

I am with John Henry, the majority of Europeans who restore their early/ rare cars are not cheque book work so dont cost even come close to 90k here. That is only tiny minority of lucky few! And I admire them as they work hard to pay for those cars and hire the best people!
But for me, that new car would be throwing 90k on a bonfire because you wont see it back compared to a real one, so you have to be the sort of person who has the money and mentality not to care about that and just wants to order a unique but at the same time 'off the shelf classic looking' vehicle, and I know there are always a few people who want to and can pay for 'instant new classics' although very few in Europe but it seems to me to be a far more common thing in USA?

And stamping them with 'continuing vins' seems like a farce and verging on criminal actually? and wont be worth the metal it is stamped on anyway, except to maybe future naive buyers who could get their hands severely burned. Something that at least does not happen with speedster reps.

Here is a real Heb that we have been discussing only recently:
http://auto.local.ch/de/d/qmkGjefYLh39MGT-CuPTpA?showTags=false

Good luck though, I really dont mean to be negative about it as it is a unique and clever custom project it is really genuinely impressive! and it will be very cool to see the first one finished! :D

I guess when something like this gets posted on a forum used by owners of genuine old cars this opinion here is obvious, because it is not the buyer market anyway. Maybe there is a US Custom car or kitcar forum that would really like it though?

Well said Anna. As a hobby/business owner myself I wish them the best. I know the business risks and anxiety of tooling up for a product, although it is now starting to sound like maybe they have not invested in panel dies (BIG $$$). Clearly this venture by WCA is not the core of their business, and I 'm sure the Heb-line will not make or break them.

It will be interesting to see the acceptance of these as they become available, how many are actually sold turnkey, etc. I have already made my prediction, and it is just that, a prediction.

It is common in threads like these (and sales of other hype cars) that big dollar amounts get tossed around, often by people who have no real idea what it takes to build a car from the ground up, when in fact, as time passes, it becomes evident that little or no such sales take place. I have heard of cars that have been advertised here for eye popping prices that were actually sold for a fraction of their asking price, and others just never sell. So I am naturally skeptical.

I do look forward to seeing pics of these replicas as they are made, and hearing from others who have seen them firsthand. WCA certainly appears to be a shop that can pull this off....

Wed May 06, 2009 6:08 am

69volkswagen wrote: decklid, rear cowl, fenders, and hood are pressed. the rest is made from a year correct bug. custom fab the doors and convertible mechanism.

How are the fenders different from split/oval fenders? Are they and the hoods being pressed on original dies to make parts for these??

Wed May 06, 2009 7:34 am

Lidpainter wrote: If he does have the original dies, perhaps he could stamp out some proper front quarters for early bugs. They'd be more useful than Heb clones.

Hebmuller would not have had quarter panel dies. They received partially completed shells with no roof sections from VW. Then they converted everything.