TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed May 06, 2009 7:36 am

mrsherbie wrote: 69volkswagen wrote: the VIN's will even continue.

now you know the facts, stop talkin shit

I guess when something like this gets posted on a forum used by owners of genuine old cars this opinion here is obvious, because it is not the buyer market anyway.

Exactly.

Wed May 06, 2009 9:10 am

ok,sorry,but im callin bullshit on that heb being sold......who would this person be? i just dont see anyone paying $90k or close to it for a vert beetle.......the person would have wanted a heb specifically and i just dont see someone like that buying into all this weird bogus info......great fab work,but honestly i think the rosental (spelling?) roadster has more provenance

Wed May 06, 2009 4:20 pm

As I understand it, Roger Dean has been working closely with Dirk so no they're not the original dies, they are these: http://www.blech-manufaktur.de/40597/home.html

Roger & Dirk were put in contact with each other when each separately contacted the Hebmüller family with regards to replicating the design and the project is endorsed by Klaus Hebmüller.

To me it doesn't really matter how much it costs, you will always have to answer the question at shows - "is it real?" with a "no... sorry" which would get old very quick. :wink:

Wed May 06, 2009 5:16 pm

peter schepens wrote: HALLO? Kai
Quote: They would number them, starting where the old Hebs ended, and make them with the oval dash.. So basically continue the production as where Hebmuller left it????

And wich car is then the last one made at the hebmuller plant. :roll: :?:
Greets. I know of one pretty close. You know him too Peter. I hope he speaks up. His car would blow this thread up. 8)

Wed May 06, 2009 6:56 pm

thebucket wrote: peter schepens wrote: HALLO? Kai
Quote: They would number them, starting where the old Hebs ended, and make them with the oval dash.. So basically continue the production as where Hebmuller left it????

And wich car is then the last one made at the hebmuller plant. :roll: :?:
Greets. I know of one pretty close. You know him too Peter. I hope he speaks up. His car would blow this thread up. 8)

Damn! I hate secrets :x

Wed May 06, 2009 10:46 pm

you can call it what you want, hack job, garage built, kit car. i still think its badass. and we have sold the one at kelley park, we also have another one to build after this. we got permission from heb, with the VINS to the phantom 53, and a signed original heb decklid.

Thu May 07, 2009 12:50 am

pre67vw wrote: you will always have to answer the question at shows - "is it real?" with a "no... sorry" which would get old very quick. :wink:

Is it real? Yes.
Is it original? No.

Thu May 07, 2009 1:27 am

James D wrote: pre67vw wrote: you will always have to answer the question at shows - "is it real?" with a "no... sorry" which would get old very quick. :wink:

Is it real? Yes.
Is it original? No.

Is it a real Hebmüller? No

Thu May 07, 2009 2:47 am

My admiration to people who design and (re)produce Hebmuller spare parts and specially body parts is huge!!
For me no problem as long as those parts are used to restore or repair after an accident!
But please ... to build a complete car!
Didn't Dr. Frankenstein do the same with a dead body to create something new?
It did not look very nice either did it? :roll:

:twisted: ET

Its a d(octor) d(irk) hebmuller or a w.c. hebmuller
but it is not and it will never be a VOLKSWAGEN HEBMULLER!

Thu May 07, 2009 4:18 am

69volkswagen wrote: you can call it what you want, hack job, garage built, kit car. i still think its badass. and we have sold the one at kelley park, we also have another one to build after this. we got permission from heb, with the VINS to the phantom 53, and a signed original heb decklid.

I do not call it anything.
If I had to I´d call it a Heb lookalike. Maybe even a well builded one.
But ... what for do you need any permition? And who gave it to you?
we got permission from heb The last living member of the Heb building generation is Liselotte Hebmüller. She lives now in a retirement home and became a little addled nowadays. She never was involved in the car making process and surely can not give you any permition.
The guy named Klaus Hebmuller who still lives is just a nephew of the
car building Hebmullers. He also never was involved in the company wich not exists anymore cince more that 56 years. So, who gave you any permition to do what?
What ever you create, having the VINs of a maybe 1953 made car or not, it never gets any more genuine by going on with any numbers on it.
You maybe can tell so to people with no idea what you are talking about and if they have too much money to spend they maybe even buy one of those but nobody who is really into vintage volkswagens will spend such an amount for a recreated car while he could get an original for that money.

Thu May 07, 2009 5:21 am

pre67vw wrote: James D wrote: pre67vw wrote: you will always have to answer the question at shows - "is it real?" with a "no... sorry" which would get old very quick. :wink:

Is it real? Yes.
Is it original? No.

Is it a real Hebmüller? No

Nobody is saying it is!
Its real in that its a perfect copy in steel. Not some fibreglass thing.

So - oval dash aside - whats the physical difference that makes this a mere fake and an original car such an object of reverence? That they were built at different times?

No one wants to see these passed off as originals, but it´ll be a long time before that happens.

If you think this is bad, just be happy you don´t own an AC Cobra! :D

Thu May 07, 2009 6:55 am

Its not just and "oval dash", its is oval based. That means that probably half of the sheet metal is different at least in some minor way to what original Hebs were. No big deal until someone tries to say it is "exactly like a Heb", or worse yet, some uneducated buy with more money than brains is sold one that way. Only later to find he has a well built oval kit car.

Its not exactly like a Heb. You might as well build one out of a '68, or a '74, it would be the same thing. There is no reverence in that.

Reverence comes in a limited production car or historical significance such as a real Heb. One that has all of the characteristics of a split window Beetle, not an Oval.

Ill be interesting to see what the DMVs make of these restamped VINs. Will they just grind the number off the chassis and stamp a new one? I know there are at least some states that will take a pretty dim view of that.

I would also love to hear an answer to Cartsen's question about who in the Hebmueller family and why were they contacted.

Thu May 07, 2009 7:32 am

I would think of this car as a well built rendition of a historical car. How many Porsche Speedster Replicas you see that you second guess whether it is real or not? Reading the thread, and not knowing the complete history of Hebmuller, I am assuming the reason for the oval dash is that is where Hebmuller was going with a future model, I could be wrong though. I would not only drive this car and be proud of it, I would pay for the quality craftmanship. I am a VW freak just like everyone who visits this site more than 10 times in one day. However, I am not a purist.

Way to go creating a fine example of a historic car, I look forward to seeing it completed

Thu May 07, 2009 8:07 am

johnshenry wrote: Its not just and "oval dash", its is oval based. That means that probably half of the sheet metal is different at least in some minor way to what original Hebs were. No big deal until someone tries to say it is "exactly like a Heb", or worse yet, some uneducated buy with more money than brains is sold one that way. Only later to find he has a well built oval kit car.

Its not exactly like a Heb. You might as well build one out of a '68, or a '74, it would be the same thing. There is no reverence in that.

Reverence comes in a limited production car or historical significance such as a real Heb. One that has all of the characteristics of a split window Beetle, not an Oval.

Clearly you are right in respect to it not being just the dash thats different, but lets assume (for the sake of arguement :twisted: ) that this car had been based on a split? What then?

I´m probably coming off as arguementative here, but I´m just playing devils advocate. This arguement that is essentially "its different because its older" is an interesting one.

"Reverence" is entirely something that you bring into the equation. It has nothing to do with the sheetmetal. You revere it because you know its original - if you didn´t know...? What then?

Thu May 07, 2009 8:25 am

Hebmuller permission or not, to a government, it's going to be a "2009 Hebmuller" or a "1953 Vw". Government agencies go by the manufacture date of the vehicle so if they want to call it a Heb and want to continue the correct vin#'s it will have to be registered as a 2009. If they want to register it as a 1953 then they have to use the vin # of the 1953 donor and it's manufacturer name.

Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am

I don't think it is argument, just good civil discussion.

If it is split based, then:

1) It has the same sheet metal as a real Heb

2) It is as old as a real Heb

3) It it is a better recreation of Heb, as it was made the same way rel Hebs were made, by starting with VW Factory split bodies and adding the Heb specific panels.

4) It has the chance to be worth considerably more than an oval based one

5) It can at least be "revered" as a split to some degree.

As for "why they are using oval bodies" is because they just can't get split bodies to modify! Most would be too expensive, or too damaged, rotted to make it worth while. Decent, dry ovals aren't that hard to find.

I'd never buy one, even if it was split based. If I wanted a Heb, I'd find one and buy one. I like the roofs of my splits just the way they are....

Thu May 07, 2009 8:59 am

:D

I´d love to have a split based one, and an oval based one wouldn´t bother me unduly - it´d be great fun - but I wouldn´t pay real Heb money for it.

Thu May 07, 2009 9:03 am

Hi,
yes this carbody was made by Roger Dean using my "Hebmüller replacement panels". It is in no way intended by Roger to fool somebody or to sell this car body as an original Hebmüller car body. When I met Roger in 2005 we had just started two very similar projects - we both wanted to rebuild an originallike type 14 A. Roger had made some research on the Hebmüller history like I had done and we got in contact through Klaus Hebmüller.

Here are some thoughts about the "replica" parts and "cars":

Yes the parts are made VERY close to the originals as I had the big luck to find original samples of the press parts from 1949. As I am a longterm VW enthusiat and a deep drawing specialist Idecided to start this project in 2005. I reengineered the diesaccording to the original parts samples using the same forming geometry / forming method, so even the strain distribution on these panels is similar to the originals.
To assure that nobody can easily sell my parts as originals, I only use modern anodized deep drawing steel and all my panels are phosphated and Kathaphoretic dip primered.

There will not be thousands of parts, as I am not a mass producer and believe me, the pressing, lasercutting and hand finishing of each part is very expensive and time consuming for a "one man company" like me. If you are interested in the prices, please visit
blech-manufaktur.de

I do not know what the price of the completed body is in the US. The set of parts needed for conversion actually costs roundabout 15000 Euros plus 19% VAT here in Germany (you will get back VAT when importing the parts to the US and paying your US customs). This is a very competitive price if you take into consideration the invest for the die sets (all dies and parts are made and engineered in Germany, I do this in my spare time). There are not many people out there sharing the enthusiasm needed to take the risk for such a project and having the know-how to design the parts, dies and to produce these panels. If somebody is able to do it cheaper in the same quality - ok just do it.

I am also building my first complete carbody in Europe (http://forums.pre67vw.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=16585) it is based on a early split body that had a frontal crash in the mid fifties and was stored dry but without it's pan til then. This car will be a driver and will be a "clone" of my original Heb No. 14-000291. I am proud, that this car will carry my name as the manufacturers name. It will not be sold as a "Hebmüller" car body.

For the price:
It is always the decision of the buyer to buy a set of parts or not...

Originality:
The cars built with my panels will be absolutely originallike, but will always stay newly built coachbuilt cars - no Hebmüllers.
I leave it up to your oppinion, if they are less original, than "original Hebmüllers" made from single windshield frames, an old original Heb lid and burnt out fragments of a rear cowl.

To me it is a big fun and challenge to reproduce these parts. The fact alone, that I got to know many very nice VW guys around the globe (greetings to US, Poland, Norway, France, Brazil..) was worth all the effort in this project.

No the split fenders are not (yet) available as repro parts. But there might be an enthusiast in Germany who has already reengineered the original dies using original 49 press part samples... :wink: But it will surely take some time to finish the dies if you have only some hours of spare t ime left each week.

Aircooled greetings from Germany
Dirk

Thu May 07, 2009 9:31 am

I really don't see what the big deal is. If I had that kind of money and wanted a heb, especially if I wanted to modify it, I would not have a problem with one of these.

As long as they are not being passed off as the real thing I see nothing wrong with it. The work looks nicely done and I understand that Dirk's parts are very nice.

The heb is a good looking car, especially the way Rich did his. If someone wants a replica and has the money to buy a replica, good for them.

Thu May 07, 2009 10:07 am

Just a tought from my side:
What if tomorow somebody offers a complete new pressed split bodyshell, with new wings, front hood and enginecover , and all the tinwork for the engine of a 25 horser...?
Who is going to complain :roll:

I think it is a great job to do this and also a great effort to finish it.
Thanks Roger and Dirk for sharing it to us.
One remark from my side ( who am I to write this anyway) If you will give the body's a Hebnumber .....start from this one: 14-02001.

And the aufbautags should read Dr D Hortig and R Dean instead of hebmuller. :idea:

The best thing to avoid problems is to "mark" the new pressed panels with a secret mark that only the manufacture know. This helps to identify the new parts and can avoid the problem in the question : Fake, New or real. :?