TheSamba.com :: View topic - how do people feel about the flying swastika

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:37 pm

My question for the day is how do people feel about the flying swastika

I would feel weird having a swastika on anything that VW didn’t put it on,
So when I see later cars with the flying swastika hubcaps, mud flaps, or otherwise,
or folks with the flying swastika VW tattoo I wonder if they realize that it’s a swastika that they put on their body.
What is the general feeling on this?

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:54 pm

ach60 wrote: My question for the day is how do people feel about the flying swastika

I would feel weird having a swastika on anything that VW didn’t put it on,
So when I see later cars with the flying swastika hubcaps, mud flaps, or otherwise,
or folks with the flying swastika VW tattoo I wonder if they realize that it’s a swastika that they put on their body.
What is the general feeling on this?

You realize that here on the Samba that there is no political comments, pictures etc. So you tell me if Swastika hub caps are a political statement? Things could get a little precarious because the VW Beetle in it's conception was also a political statement and was used as a political tool, instrument for the German government. It's hard to separate it's origin from the German government. As you know the German government financed the Factory and the car. So tread lightly on the comments.
I would have asked Everett first before posting.

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:44 pm

Probably like most owners, I never gave it much of a thought. We all know how the car started, etc. Like you said, if you are lucky enough to be able to afford one of those collector cars that were from that era then so be it. It is part of the car and history. We probably should have a Union Jack on the cars made after 45 since there probably wouldn't be a VW except for the Brits...
I own a Thing also and boy, it's amazing how many people of all ages think it's one of "Hitlers jeeps."

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:51 pm

Is that a swastika?

The swastika actually originated in India. If you look to the history of Indians you will see the it's use. That doesn't make it's display any more bearable.

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:11 pm

kawfee wrote: Is that a swastika?

The swastika actually originated in India. If you look to the history of Indians you will see the it's use. That doesn't make it's display any more bearable.

True....yet.....the "Indian swastika" rotates the other direction ....but not always :wink:

One represents involution and the other evolution.

Yes.....that is a "stylised" swastika on that hubcap. In the current political climate....many from one side of the fence would roast you for it.

On the flipside.....about 98% of anyone from either side of any fence would not immediately recognize that hubcap as a swastika. Almost as few people under about 35 years old....have had enough depth of history education anywhere short of college.....to even know the nazi background of VW.

My personal feeling.......war relics in museums should have the swastika if that is what they wore in actual combat. Lets not change or erase or hide history for the squeemish. Knowledge of it may be the only thing that prevents us from repeating it.

Likewise......if you have a VW of that vintage...and that is the hubcap it wore......wear it. Its history.

Both of these examples described.....a museum piece and the period VW....are worthy of and exceptions for.... wearing their historical roots.

Now....walking down the street wearing a Hitler youth outfit and sporting a swastika armband?......a totally different deal.
You might get beat up. And while its your protected prerogative to do so in this country.....so I would probably intervene to prevent you from getting beat to death.... I would probably calmy finish my coffee before doing so if you are stupid enough to do that.

From a strictly designers point of view......that is a fantastic logo design! Along with that.....the VW logo with the cog wheel around it.

The third reich .....all of its evil on the table....and aside for a second.....from a design standpoint.....the emblems, uniforms etc......were a work of carefully crafted psychological and PR genius. Just watch the film footage of any of the Nuremberg rallies.....and understand the psychological power behind the imagery.
Scary stuff.....
Ray

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:14 pm

Moderator says:
It's fine to ask and talk about this.
I think there may even be an existing topic or 2 about the same subject, in the past.

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:38 pm

I agree erasing history not healthy, like burning books. lets look back on where we came and learn from.

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:11 pm

History should not be ignored. We should learn from it. I focused all of my history classes around WWII in University. As it is said, we either learn from our history or we are doomed to repeat it.

I had never seen the hubcab before. I now see it in the picture if you remove the trailing edges. It's so well hidden. Personally, I would never have such a symbol around me. They are better left to textbooks and as you say museums.

If you are interested in the Russian side of history after WW II a book (or books) by Solzhenitsyn is very good. The Archipelago is quite fascinating. I've read only the first.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:08 am

Doesn’t bother me.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:21 am

ach60 wrote: My question for the day is how do people feel about the flying swastika

I would feel weird having a swastika on anything that VW didn’t put it on,
So when I see later cars with the flying swastika hubcaps, mud flaps, or otherwise,
or folks with the flying swastika VW tattoo I wonder if they realize that it’s a swastika that they put on their body.
What is the general feeling on this?

You mean it is not stylized fan blades symbolizing the air cooled nature of the product?

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:11 am

anthracitedub wrote: Doesn’t bother me.

Pretty much sums it up. TBH, even though I’ve been a VW fan since I was a little kid (I’m 49 now) I honestly had no idea about the Nazi origins of VW until the last year or so. Even when I was involved with them back in the late 80’s I had zero idea. And now even though I now know, I really don’t care. 99.9% of people looking at that symbol wouldn’t have even an inkling of it’s origins or meaning other than it being a pretty cool design. That .1% of people that do know it’s origins should chalk it up to either historical accuracy or ignorance of its origins by the owner. I’ll wager that VERY few are putting it out there as a symbol of their beliefs so why worry about it? Personally, I’ve seen the design and didn’t realize it was original to VW until recently. Even knowing it’s origins it doesn’t bother me in the least.

I think people need to suck it up and stop being offended to the point of hysteria by anything and everything. Personally, I’m offended by a lot of the music that’s played over the public airways every day due to the acceptance of our society of over-sexualization. Nothing like being in the car with your three daughters and listening to some douchenozzle rapping about knocking boots or whatever. So I listen to talk radio or stream what I find acceptable from my phone. Seems like as a society we’ve forgotten how to problem solve.

Here’s a thought. Rather than being offended, work towards changing something ugly into something beautiful. The Nazis repurposed the symbol into something ugly, let’s as a society turn it into something nice and symbolic of great things.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:25 am

I don't think it's a swastika in the first place. A true swastika can only have the one bar on each arm, and I don't believe Nazi Germany made much effort towards hidden symbols. I see it as a typical art deco motif that implies efficient motion, especially around a gear symbol. It looks like a rotating fan to me. "Art deco" was influenced somewhat by Native American art, it was an American thing that Europe was becoming fascinated with at the time. Southwest tribes use the same stylized symbols to imply motion, the phoenix's wings come to mind. BUT, there are folks and groups out there that want it to be a swastika, so they can be offended. That's who you have to be prepared for.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:50 am

Dan Hiebert wrote: I don't think it's a swastika in the first place. A true swastika can only have the one bar on each arm, and I don't believe Nazi Germany made much effort towards hidden symbols. I see it as a typical art deco motif that implies efficient motion, especially around a gear symbol. It looks like a rotating fan to me. "Art deco" was influenced somewhat by Native American art, it was an American thing that Europe was becoming fascinated with at the time. Southwest tribes use the same stylized symbols to imply motion, the phoenix's wings come to mind. BUT, there are folks and groups out there that want it to be a swastika, so they can be offended. That's who you have to be prepared for.
If it's not, then why was it changed after the war?

Don't fool yourself by rationalizing it as no what it is.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:33 am

Trying not to turn this political or religious in nature, but there is a strong debate regarding the origins of the peace sign and symbol yet millions of people plaster them on their bumpers all the time. Look it up. Personally I dislike all the hippie bullshit more than I’m offended by what looks like a turning fan or propeller.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:23 am

I never heard of the flying swastika until now.

I still don't see it and certainly don't associate the symbol with anything but VW.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:28 am

If it was part of the car originally, you'd be a fool to alter it. If it's something that you added after the fact then you are doing it to be controversial, and in this day & age of people being offended by EVERYTHING, you run the risk of someone feeling "justified" in attacking or damaging it (or you), therefore, you'd be a fool for displaying it (unless you are wanting that confrontation, but more than likely the pu$$*&s will likely just damage your car when you're not around.).

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:22 am

The logo was directly related to the Third Reich, the same logo type was also done with a swastika in the center instead of VW, here is a good link to numerous pictures

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/HitlerKDF.htm

As for the peace sign, good ole' chubby Winston did it both ways, and what is wrong with drugs, sex and rock and roll, peace man.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:36 am

This is a good read:

The original VW logo was not "VW" but the swastika / Hakenkreuz. http://rexcurry.net/swastika-vw-logo1.jpg

Before the VW emblem was created, the organization that controlled volkswagen was the Deutsche Arbeitsfront (DAF or German Labor Front) and its logo used a swastika encircled by a cogwheel. http://rexcurry.net/swastika-vw-logo1.jpg

The Deutsche Arbeitsfront logos was the origin of the Volkswagen logo, both philosophically and stylistically.
http://rexcurry.net/deutsche-arbeitsfront-DAF-german-labor-front.jpg

Similar alphabetical symbolism was used under the NSDAP for the "SS" division, the "SA," the "NSV," et cetera. http://rexcurry.net/swastika-alphabetic-symbolism-nsdap2.jpg

The VW was known as the "swastika hubcap" car. The early versions and drawings actually had swastika hubcaps, just as the older versions had "VW" hubcaps. Some people believe that the VW hubcaps resemble the swastika at certain speeds of rotation.

Hitler used the Volkswagen for his socialist propaganda. The swastika was within the original cogged-wheel (gear) symbol that later had the "VW" letters placed within it. The "VW" letters replaced the original meshed "S" letters.

Dr. Curry's work has been announced and verified on Wikipedia. A recent article at opinioneditorials.com reports on the many references to Dr. Curry's research and discoveries on Wikipedia. Even Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia founder, has publicly noted Dr. Curry's influence on Wikipedia. Wikipedia writers use Dr. Curry's work without attribution in apparent attempts to bolster their own credibility.

Volkswagen’s iconic buttressing of V and W was the creation of an engineer named Franz Reimspiess. He was also the same man who perfected the engine for the Beetle in the 1930s.

Nikolai Borg, 86, who now lives in Austria, says he was involved in the development of the VW logo. The young commercial artist impressed others when he won the competition for the creation of a logo for the "Deutsche Jugendherbergswerk" (German youth mountain hostel work?). Borg says that he was invited to draw the car logo in a request from high-up: Dr. Ing. Fritz Todt, with the "organization Todt" the general inspector for roads and a militarily organized building troop used in the entire theater of war. Borg made nine drafts with different connections of the letters V and W before the final version was created.

Organisation Todt also supports Dr. Curry's discoveries regarding the alphabetical symbology of the swastika. http://rexcurry.net/bookchapter4a1a2b.html

In photographs, Nikolai Borg shows that the VW logo was created simply by replacing the two S letters of the swastika with the two letters V and W.
http://rexcurry.net/volkswagen-vw-beetle-nikolai-borg-swastika.jpg

Also see Nikolai Borg in this photograph http://rexcurry.net/volkswagen-vw-beetle-nikolai-borg-swastika2.jpg

Literally, the word "volkswagen" means "people's car" (cf. "folk's wagon"). When the early VW versions were introduced, Hitler abruptly changed the name of the car to KdF Wagen. KdF stood for "Kraft durch Freude" which meant "Strength through Joy." The name-change upset Porsche, as he was not a member of Hitler's Nazi-Sozi party, and he didn't support Hitler's use of socialist propaganda to advertise the car.

Of the original KdF name, Hitler said: "It bears the name of the organization that has done the most to fill the broad masses with pleasure and therefore strength. It will be called the 'KdF-Wagen.' "

There were many other socialist clichés. The "Strength through Joy" program was part of a scheme to provide holidays to workers at inexpensive rates. It was related to the "Beauty of Labor" (Schönheit der Arbeit) office. The phrase "Arbeit macht frei" ("Work brings Freedom") glared at concentration camps.

Born out of sinister intentions, the VW Beetle was propaganda for German socialists in helping create unity in pre-war Germany. Hitler imposed socialism in the car market and pushed the project.

The Beetle was the brainchild of Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, a freelance automotive designer and constructor. In 1930, Porsche set up an automotive design company, the Porsche Büro. In 1933, Adolf Hitler met with Porsche to discuss the socialist leader's idea of a volkswagen.

Porsche drew inspiration from the success of Henry Ford's creation of the mass-produced Model T. It is unfortunate that the Volkswagen went down the road of socialism, instead of the road of capitalism and the free market blazed by Henry Ford.

The leader of German socialism gave the project his whole-hearted support, and became directly involved in plans for the car's production. By 1938, several early production cars had been constructed and production facilities had been built.

In 1939, the National Socialist German Workers' Party joined with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as allies to invade Poland in a pact of military socialism to divide up Europe. The Second World War ended passenger-car production plans, and the Stuttgart factory was converted to military use.

Only later, after the Volkswagen was towed from socialism and driven by capitalism, would it meet its modern success.

Near the end of World War II many men in the "Volksgemeinschaft" (national community), both young and old, were called upon to serve in the "People's Army " (Volksturm).

Audi still uses the German tag line "Vorsprung durch Technik." The tag line is used either in original or in its English translation "Advantage through Technology." It is an odd reminder of socialist clichés from the 1930's. http://rexcurry.net/bookchapter4a1a2a1.html

Those clichés led to the socialist Wholecaust (of which the Holocaust was a part): ~60 million slaughtered under the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; ~50 million under the Peoples' Republic of China; ~20 million under the National Socialist German Workers' Party. It was the worst slaughter in human history.

Sometime after 1945, the car company was re-named Volkswagen by the British and the factory was placed under the control of a man named Hirst. The British also renamed the town at the factory "Wolfsburg", which was the name of a local castle.

In a bizarre way, some Nazism may still exist at Volkswagen within Germany. In 1949 Hirst left the company, now re-formed as a trust controlled by the West German government. Volkswagen is said to still be owned by the government of Lower Saxony, though it is not "run" by the state government. Ferdinand Porsche's grandson, Ferdinand Piech, was chairman and CEO of the Volkswagen Group from 1993 to 2002. With half of all voting shares, he also remains the largest individual shareholder of Porsche AG. Stock can be purchased in Volkswagen companies. Founded in 1955, Volkswagen of America, Inc. is headquartered in Auburn Hills, Michigan, and is a wholly owned subsidiary of Volkswagen AG, one of the world's largest automakers. Volkswagen AG (the Volkswagen Group) consists of the Volkswagen plants in Wolfsburg, Brunswick, Hanover, Kassel, Emden and Salzgitter. It is the parent company of all other companies in the Volkswagen Group, which are either wholly owned subsidiaries or companies in which Volkswagen AG has majority ownership. The Company operates 44 production plants in 11 European countries, as well as seven countries in the Americas, Asia and Africa, etc.

Before WW II, when the car was still socialism's “Strength through Joy” car the logo was surrounded by the gear shaped emblem of the German Labor Front, a socialist group that built it. The National Socialist German Workers' Party had begun as the "German Workers' Party" before adding "National Socialist" to its name.

The flag for Units of the German Labor Front had as the center field the symbol of the Deutschen Arbeitsfront (DAF, German Labor Front): a black cog wheel containing a black swastika. The finial took the form of the DAF emblem, a voided white cogwheel containing a swastika, all in polished white metal (from the Osprey Men-At-Arms Series, #278 "Flags of the Third Reich 3: Party & Police Units", p. 37).

An early design for the car featured the letter V above a W and surrounded by a cog. After the war, Britain had the cog changed to a circle and that design was filed for copyright in 1948. The Volkswagen or "people's car" project was part of the Nazi Kraft durch Freude propaganda scheme run by the Deutsche Arbeitsfront (DAF). The logo of the DAF was a swastika surrounded by a cog – from which the VW logo was derived.
Image at http://rexcurry.net/fascism-third-reich-hitler-nazism-swastika456.jpg

To control trade unions and the economic workforce, the National Socialist German Workers' Party (the National Socialistiche Deutsche Arbeiter Partei - NSDAP) created the German Labor Front (Deutsches Arbeitsfront - DAF) in 1933. The purpose of the German Labor Front was to control the German labor unions through a centrally controlled organization led by National Socialists. The German Labor Front adopted a paramilitary structure similar to that of the National Socialist German Workers Party. While membership was called "voluntary," essentially every German worker was required to be a member. This was particularly true of those workers associated with prime industries such as cars, transportation, utilities, textile trades, armament manufacturing, legal services, agriculture and the like (in other words, just about everything of course). The organization was divided into two parts including the National Socialist Factory Organization (Nationalsozialistische Betriebsorganization-NSBO) and the National Socialist Trade and Industry Organization (Nationalsozialistische Handels und Gewerbeorganization-NSHAGO).
Members of the German Labor Front were required to own and wear uniforms that denoted their status within the structure of the organization. Following the outbreak of war, members were often required to serve as factory guards or to volunteer for membership in associations like the National Air Protection League (Reichsluftschutzbund) and other Air Protection (Luftschutz) groups. In this capacity, it was their job to help protect industrial facilities as well as to coordinate with outside organizations that helped to ensure the safe operation of factory facilities. Many members of the German Labor Front also served as official members of the Factory Police (Werksschutzpolizei-WSP). By 1942, the German Labor Front also organized independent trained members who volunteered to operate anti-aircraft flak batteries to protect individual factories from Allied bombs.

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:39 am

Such evil is tied to the symbol it's largely been forgotton it was a symbol of good fortune.

I came to realize this quite by surprise. My wife and I took a long weekend off and stayed at the West Bayden Springs Hotel in French Lick Indiana. As we relaxed on the porch I noticed the iron railings had a ribbon of swastika's incorporated into the design. Needless to say I was stunned and asked the staff about it. I was directed to a plaque that explained the history of the symbol and reminded the guest's that West Bayden was constructed in 1915, well before the Nazi's adopted it.

By the way, the hotel is amazing. I highly recommend it 8)

Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:30 pm

Dan Hiebert wrote: I don't think it's a swastika in the first place. A true swastika can only have the one bar on each arm, and I don't believe Nazi Germany made much effort towards hidden symbols. I see it as a typical art deco motif that implies efficient motion, especially around a gear symbol. It looks like a rotating fan to me. "Art deco" was influenced somewhat by Native American art, it was an American thing that Europe was becoming fascinated with at the time. Southwest tribes use the same stylized symbols to imply motion, the phoenix's wings come to mind. BUT, there are folks and groups out there that want it to be a swastika, so they can be offended. That's who you have to be prepared for.

Oh yes.....it definitely is!

Some clearer pictures and uses of it by the Nazi's

From some of the VW worker coupon books

A little more clear depiction...first clean...then stylized like they used on the worker coupon books and literature.

Some good reading here on the Samba

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6143180

And by the way...Art Deco had absolutely nothing to do with American Indian symbolism or art. This is a common misconception.

You see a lot of similarities in "some" native american art ..especially Hopi....but some of that was actually Hopi art that was getting popular due to population building in the Southwest...being made into jewelry and art pieces ...and taking on the Art Deco style of metal work. Art Deco had more influence on American Indian artists of the era...than the artists had on art deco.

While there are a "few" American regional Art Deco works that had "some" American Indian motifs incorporated.....Art Deco was an International" style that began with post modern interpretation of classical Greek motifs in industrial age materials starting in about 1898 (earliest roots).....which morphed again into Art Nouveau in the teens and 20's with the addition of more new materials and the then current artistic styles.

Then it collected cubism and fauvism on the pure art side....and moved into full machine-age streamlining during high Art Deco in about 1928 to 1939 (in which can be directly seen that most art Deco motifs to be machine age renditions of classical age details and machine age renditions of of decicated Art Nouveau styles) ...morphing again....when the 1940's hit....globally it morphed into a lower, cleaner, curvilinear, less decorative style that is formally known as the "International" style.

This is putting it in a nutshell and leaving a LOT out. Sorry!

Yes....going through both architecture and product design school I picked up a secondary degree in art and architectural history.... :wink:

By the way...my bad....that original picture in this thread was a dashboard insert and not a hubcap. I have seen so many hubcaps with the swastika I just glanced at it and assumed.

Ray