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Sun Dec 15, 2024 9:09 am

but then I suspect the 'average salary in 2024' is more likely skewed by the super high 'earners' and not a good indication of what people earn compared to 69

Sun Dec 15, 2024 9:11 am

Cash for clunkers was about a silly as the guy that's selling off the border wall materials for scrap so that the new guy will then have to rebuy the material with tax payer dollars so that he can keep all those cheap EV's from crossing the border.

Sun Dec 15, 2024 9:15 am

Abscate wrote: Your trouble understanding this is simply because your use case is an edge case,

When I needed to lug $200k of scientific equipment 700 miles+ from NC to NYC , I rented a van one way for $350 within walking distance of my house.

As EVs continue to be adopted, solutions for edge case use will grow via market forces. Right now, for instance, I can rent any size vehicle I can legally drive without a CDL from multiple locations within 15 minutes of my workspace.

What "edge case" are we talking about? Sure, I can rent any size vehicle I want as well. And none of my clients or any of the clients of the MANY other consultants and techs I know across a spread of industries.....lives within walking distance of the house :roll: .....and that fact aside.....unless mileage and need of specific equipment, samples and materials can be justified....just throwing a rental car into the mix is rarely in the client budget....especially on top of all other costs these days.

These also are not once in a blue moon trips. These are at least three per month or more. The only time car rentals are pretty much in budget are over 500 miles each way or in an area where you just cannot fly in with normal airlines.

That is the flaw in your logic that the reality on the ground will just not allow to convince me in any way.
Clients across a huge range of industries are not just made of money. Time is of the essence. Typically in order formany people like me to actually be able to be scheduled in to do what I do.....the production line or module we will be working with has to be shut down. That is tons of $$$$$ sitting still. It would not be tolerated to say....."sorry I am half a day late.....I couldn't find a charger".....or....."I would have driven the piddling 500 miles in one shot....but I had to stop for the night about halfway to charge the battery....oh and that's an extra night in the hotel and an extra 2 meals.....both ways!"......who is paying for that?

A client is willing to pay mileage.....but not that bullshit!

At some point in time, what I am describing WILL be an "edge" or "fringe" case. There are many battery technologies emerging. But we are nowhere near that and the level of freely available .....reliably working in all weather....rapid recharge systems.....simply does not exist at any level that will support INTERSTATE COMMERCE.

I highlighted that last word because it's key. It's what most EV buffs just do not get. If an EV is working for you, it's because you drive short distances within the capabilities of the EV. If it works for you reliably....constantly....when you drive long distances.....it's probably because you either do not do them all the time, have time to burn, do them in fair weather.....or you have just gotten lucky.

Ray

Sun Dec 15, 2024 9:16 am

Glenn wrote: TDCTDI wrote: And in the ‘60s/‘70s, you could buy a new VW for $1,600-$2,000
Here's some simple math facts:

In 1969, the average salary was $5200/year.

In 2024 the average salary is $62,000/year.

So a $2000 car in 1969 would be equal to a $24,000 car today.

A base 2024 Subaru Impreza is $23,000. and You get a car with all wheel drive, CVT and AC.

A lot more car than a 1969 Beetle.

Absolutely. All of the cars from then are archaic & lacking by today’s standards. And as such, ALL of those improvements & added bells & whistles are going to make these new cars an absolute nightmare to repair when they become older.

The days of $1,000-$1,500 beaters is going the same way as the $50-$100 beater, with the exception that you could usually fix the $50-$100 beater with a valve adjustment, a clutch, or a new set of points.

Sun Dec 15, 2024 9:21 am

raygreenwood wrote:
A client is willing to pay mileage.....but not that bullshit!

That's a really good point. You and I both do consulting work. When you go to a client's site and sitting in the car an extra hour or whatever it takes costs time someone has to pay for that. The employee has to lose an extra hour of their time to charge a car to make someone else feel good about themselves. I pass on those costs to the client but I know that the salaried employees can't or don't. Time is money.

Sun Dec 15, 2024 9:38 am

TDCTDI wrote:

Cash for clunkers was a way of stimulating the market to keep the banks & auto industry from collapsing…

Sure, cash for clunkers took a lot of “running” cars out of the market, but most of what I saw traded in & scrapped (evidenced by the purple painted engines in salvage yards) were doomed

Yea, I understand the concept and to your point, a rusty explorer that got a kid to work for 2k was better than nothing

I killed many cars under 100k miles and "as is" were probably in the 2-4k range in terms of private sale money

you can't deny the fact that this program kept people in shittier cars longer than normal because we effectively murdered all of the "better" beater cars

and not for nothing, let these fuckers fold,(auto industry) including the federal government. nobody seems to know how to balance a fucking checkbook
anymore

I mean, VW is on the verge of going tits up. Last I knew they were closing 3 plants in Germany....not that it matters because they have built pure trash the last 10-15 years anyway

Sun Dec 15, 2024 10:10 am

Believe it or not, poor people actually do buy clapped out old cars. When I was poor, that is what I did. If a poor person buys a nice car, perhaps on credit, that person will remain poor a bit longer than they would if they buy a clapped out old cheap car.

A clapped out old car, cheap to buy, cheap to own is a great way to get to work, get to school, to lift one out of poverty.
I have driven $50 to $110 clapped oit old cars , I even splurged on a $500 runner, when poor they have done me well.
Now days I have it made, and treated myself to the most pricey car I ever bought, $5000. woopie, living large!!! Movin on up, I finally got a piece of the pie . Clapped out cheap old cars got me there. That reminds me of the Jeffersons TV show, you all liked that show? I did....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FHDwRECFL8M&pp=ygUhamVmZmVyc29ucyB0aGVtZSBzb25nIG1vdmluIG9uIHVw

Sun Dec 15, 2024 2:45 pm

zerotofifty wrote: Believe it or not, poor people actually do buy clapped out old cars. When I was poor, that is what I did. If a poor person buys a nice car, perhaps on credit, that person will remain poor a bit longer than they would if they buy a clapped out old cheap car.

Realistically, anyone that makes payments on a car, new or used, can’t afford it, they just think they can because they think they can afford the monthly installments. It is this mentality that keeps people poor.

Sun Dec 15, 2024 6:00 pm

TDCTDI wrote:

Realistically, anyone that makes payments on a car, new or used, can’t afford it, they just think they can because they think they can afford the monthly installments.

By that logic nobody can afford a house or any other real estate.

I'm a cash is king kind of guy but it's not possible in all situations.

Having said that, financing a car for 100k and 80 months is insane.

Sun Dec 15, 2024 6:05 pm

TDCTDI wrote: zerotofifty wrote: Believe it or not, poor people actually do buy clapped out old cars. When I was poor, that is what I did. If a poor person buys a nice car, perhaps on credit, that person will remain poor a bit longer than they would if they buy a clapped out old cheap car.

Realistically, anyone that makes payments on a car, new or used, can’t afford it, they just think they can because they think they can afford the monthly installments. It is this mentality that keeps people poor.

Payments is another reason electric cars are making everyone poorer. With the subsidies the taxpayer is on the hook for, given our debt, we are poorer every time another electric car is subsidized. Our yet to be born grandkids will be paying off these electric car subsidies, leaving less money for their needs. Heck cash for clunkers also indebted our grand kids. It is a crime against humanity, tax debt slavery. The electric car zealots just dont care, I suppose they they think grand kids are simply edge case taxpayers.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 4:06 am

Economics is not zero sum, despite the lack of understanding of this by many.

Tariffs.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:34 am

Abscate wrote: Economics is not zero sum, despite the lack of understanding of this by many.

Tariffs.

Taxes are. The government doesn't make any money of its own. Everything is does is taxpayer funded and is at the cost of the citizens. If it gives money to one person some other person(s) pays that.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 9:47 am

heimlich wrote:
Taxes are. The government doesn't make any money of its own. Everything is does is taxpayer funded and is at the cost of the citizens. If it gives money to one person some other person(s) pays that.

Thats not entirely accurate.
Other sources of US government revenue includes.

-Customs duties
-Leases of government-owned land and buildings
-Sale of natural resources
-Usage and licensing fees
-Payments to federal agencies
-Admission to national parks

Example
-Sale of natural resources

“Royalties on the sale of oil and gas produced on federal lands are a significant source of federal revenue. From 2012-2022, companies paid the U.S. government $74 billion in royalties.”

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-103676

Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:02 am

Xevin wrote: heimlich wrote:
Taxes are. The government doesn't make any money of its own. Everything is does is taxpayer funded and is at the cost of the citizens. If it gives money to one person some other person(s) pays that.

Thats not entirely accurate.
Other sources of US government revenue includes.

-Customs duties
-Leases of government-owned land and buildings
-Sale of natural resources
-Usage and licensing fees
-Payments to federal agencies
-Admission to national parks

Example
-Sale of natural resources

“Royalties on the sale of oil and gas produced on federal lands are a significant source of federal revenue. From 2012-2022, companies paid the U.S. government $74 billion in royalties.”

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-103676

All of that belongs to taxpayers. Revenue from the government is at the expense of the taxpayer.

It's like the firearms buyback programs. You pay the government taxes. It then buys your firearm back from you with your money.

-Customs duties - A tax.
-Leases of government-owned land and buildings - the taxpayer owns that building.
-Sale of natural resources - the tax payer owns those resources
-Usage and licensing fees - They charge the tax payer fees and licenses.
-Payments to federal agencies - Those are essentially a tax.
-Admission to national parks - Another tax.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:35 am

National Parks, how about reduced entry fees for citizens, and increased fees for non citizens? I say make the foreign tourists pay more. After all the citizens fund these parks with taxes in addition to the entry fees. maybe that will reduce crowding on our parks, or at least increase the revenue so the parks can afford upgrades.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:36 am

Back in the 70's the USPS was set up to be completely independent and self-sufficient Gov't agency, unfortunately internet & electronic banking has taken away a huge amount of USPS business. Today they can no longer break even and must be supplemented with taxpayer funding. Back in the 80's, 90's, & early 00's the USPS did not receive one single penny of taxpayer funds. Then in the mid 00's a few greedy politicians changed that and demanded the USPS make a profit to shore up the failing Social Security.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:40 am

heimlich wrote: Xevin wrote: heimlich wrote:
Taxes are. The government doesn't make any money of its own. Everything is does is taxpayer funded and is at the cost of the citizens. If it gives money to one person some other person(s) pays that.

Thats not entirely accurate.
Other sources of US government revenue includes.

-Customs duties
-Leases of government-owned land and buildings
-Sale of natural resources
-Usage and licensing fees
-Payments to federal agencies
-Admission to national parks

Example
-Sale of natural resources

“Royalties on the sale of oil and gas produced on federal lands are a significant source of federal revenue. From 2012-2022, companies paid the U.S. government $74 billion in royalties.”

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-103676

All of that belongs to taxpayers. Revenue from the government is at the expense of the taxpayer.

It's like the firearms buyback programs. You pay the government taxes. It then buys your firearm back from you with your money.

-Customs duties - A tax.
-Leases of government-owned land and buildings - the taxpayer owns that building.
-Sale of natural resources - the tax payer owns those resources
-Usage and licensing fees - They charge the tax payer fees and licenses.
-Payments to federal agencies - Those are essentially a tax.
-Admission to national parks - Another tax.

Yes Heimlich we understand everything regarding the Federal government belongs to The American tax payer and that Federal revenue comes from mostly taxes on the American citizens.

However foreign entities that use the above services and products are not necessarily paying taxes they are simply just paying for the product. That revenue then goes back to the American tax payer funds from revenue generated by the federal government.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:42 am

zerotofifty wrote: National Parks, how about reduced entry fees for citizens, and increased fees for non citizens? I say make the foreign tourists pay more. After all the citizens fund these parks with taxes in addition to the entry fees. maybe that will reduce crowding on our parks, or at least increase the revenue so the parks can afford upgrades.

Agreed. Like some states do with out of state/foreign fishing and hunting licenses or university tuition.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:47 am

Xevin wrote: zerotofifty wrote: National Parks, how about reduced entry fees for citizens, and increased fees for non citizens? I say make the foreign tourists pay more. After all the citizens fund these parks with taxes in addition to the entry fees. maybe that will reduce crowding on our parks, or at least increase the revenue so the parks can afford upgrades.

Agreed. Like some states do with out of state/foreign fishing and hunting licenses or university tuition.

That'd be too smart for our government to do. Then they would make you show an ID. They don't want that.

Tue Dec 17, 2024 12:21 pm

vwracerdave wrote: Back in the 70's the USPS was set up to be completely independent and self-sufficient Gov't agency, unfortunately internet & electronic banking has taken away a huge amount of USPS business. Today they can no longer break even and must be supplemented with taxpayer funding. Back in the 80's, 90's, & early 00's the USPS did not receive one single penny of taxpayer funds. Then in the mid 00's a few greedy politicians changed that and demanded the USPS make a profit to shore up the failing Social Security.

Fed Ex, UPS, all private employers... all are propping up Social Security The employers pay near a 7% payroll tax for that purpose, the employee the other near 7% on payroll. (half and half) (truth is that that near 14% payroll tax comes out of the people no matter if the company is billed all or part, or the employee is billed all or part).

Social Security is going broke cause the politicians got their grubby hands on it and stole it.

Near 14% of my lifetime salary stolen. And no one goes to prison for it. If a private pension fund administrator did what the government did, they'd be in prison.