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Am I missing something, or has nobody perfected the TDI swap
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SL12572
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Am I missing something, or has nobody perfected the TDI swap Reply with quote

Hey everyone,

So I've been really trying to research doing an engine swap in my recent purchased Syncro, but I've been running into some roadblocks. It seems like the Subaru conversion is perfected, the Zetec is also perfected, but what about the TDI? I've had a few people try to convince me out of doing the TDI, due to expense and difficulty. I spend hours looking on various sites, and I find:

1. DIY kits around the 8-9k price range. Seems like it includes everything, minus modifying the fuel tank and wiring harness. Am I missing something here? A bad route to go?

2. People go out and tackle the project themselves, which I usually find it to be above and beyond what I want to do. 1-2 years doing the conversion, fabricating mounts, etc.

I am a diesel nut and it's the route I really would like to go for engine longevity, MPG, and can run on a variety of fuels. But should I be going the Subaru route, or get a tencent rebuild?


I know this topic has been brought up a million times, but I am still questioning what route to go with this...
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of all the engine configurations you mentioned, I think only the Tencent kit comes close to being a perfected install. There are literally dozens of options for both the TDI and Subaru, and Bostig is constantly changing and improving their kits. It would be interesting to pull together a matrix of all the criteria and the various options available, and then a person could filter through each to see which track best suited their needs. Personally, the TDI (mTDI) route makes the most sense for me, but I'll be DIY'ing everything except for the injection pump prep. There are lots of successful TDI, Subaru and Bostig installs...but for each there are also numerous stories of projects gone awry. Perfection is a journey, not a destination
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two routes to go with TDI swaps in terms of mounting the basic engine:
1. Use an early 1Z or AHU TDI and mount it at 50 degrees using diesel Vanagon hardware. The left factory mount has to be replaced with a custom one due to turbo location

2. Use a later ALH TDI and mount it upright at 15 degrees using a custom crossmember. The luggage floor has to be raised with this option.

Justin Soares at Greasewerks has done quite a few of the 50 degree conversions and I would say it is reasonably well perfected at this point. He sells the custom left side mount, so mounting the engine up this way would be pretty easy.

There are also two routes to go with fuel injection. You can use the full electronic system that came with the TDI. This requires the use of throttle by wire. The other option is to buy a mechanical fuel pump from Karl Mullendohr. This route requires less wiring and uses the standard Vanagon throttle cable.

Really the only two areas where off the shelf parts aren't readily available to complete this conversion are the exhaust system and the intercooler. The lack of availability of these two important components is probably why there aren't more people doing this conversion.

The other thing to be aware of is that the TDI needs much taller gearing than the stock Vanagon transmission has, so you have to either have an expensive tranny built for the conversion with revised ratios, or fit some big tires to the van.

This conversion makes a lot of sense, though, given the 30 mpg potential and excellent torque of the engine. If you love diesels, I'd spend the extra money and go this route. No conversion or engine upgrade is going to be cheap, so you might as well go for the one you really like.

David
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you put an early TDI engine (like 1Z),you can source parts on ebay.de to mount it plug and play for the turbo and exhaust part,as for the filter etc...
for syncro,you need a syncro diesel tank or heat gun yours with care.
I didn't convert mine from gas to diesel,it was a 1.6TD base,swapped to 1.6TD from golf II with hydraulic head ,and some vitamins etc....then 1.9 NA turned into TD,then to 1.9 TDI-M

Pump is easy to do,it just sucks diesel cars are not widely sold in USA,thus junkyards are empty to shop for bits.

My TDI-M has a watercooled turbo from a Golf 2 1.6TD intercooled model
a Kawasaki bike radiator to cool down the return line of coolant from turbo to block.
A second electric pump,both triggered by the temperatur sensor on the turbo
An Audi 80 1.9 TD oil filter mount that has the built in by pass,and an oil radiator from a Golf 1 GTI 1800CC
Injection pump made with bits from Fiat,Golf 2 and TDI,new nozzles
Aquastat from Golf 3 VR6 (opens earlier)
TDI fly wheel,golf 3 VR6 clutch,input shaft TDI/T25

To make it simple,you should put it TDI-E,way easier,just a few wires.

It's just hard from scratch in USA,I agree Embarassed ,and engine are 8 times more expensive Mad
In Europe,I do that in 2 to 3 days Laughing


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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanaru.com does a subaru 2.5 install starting at $9800. You will Not need to regear the tranny. They also ship it as a turnkey kit.

I dont know why you say the TDi is not perfected, greaseworks.org does it very very well, for 18k, includes tranny work

decide if it is worth it to you to pay 8k extra to be diesel.

Dont choose diesel thinking you will save money overall on fuel, it will take 150,000 miles to make up the $8,000, at todays gas and diesel prices, assuming you get 30mpg diesel, vs 20mpg gas
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just bought a van with an 1.9 ALH that has had 60,000 miles since the swap.

So the info should be out there. I need to get on the TDI forum.

Good luck, Jeff
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SL12572
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information. I guess what I mean is that you can source out really good information, or kits for the Subaru and Zetec, but it seems the same does not exist for the TDI. I don't mind doing a little bit of fabrication, but it seems there is a bit more involved with getting everything together if you want to go diesel. It would be nice if there was a really good plug and play option. I don't want to spend 1-2 years putting the syncro diesel together. I want to drive it and enjoy it!
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SL12572 wrote:
Thanks for the information. I guess what I mean is that you can source out really good information, or kits for the Subaru and Zetec, but it seems the same does not exist for the TDI. I don't mind doing a little bit of fabrication, but it seems there is a bit more involved with getting everything together if you want to go diesel. It would be nice if there was a really good plug and play option. I don't want to spend 1-2 years putting the syncro diesel together. I want to drive it and enjoy it!


Then pay a professional for his time, you get your van back quickly, and ready to go. End of story.
You can do this
-Quickly
-Inexpensively
-Correctly
But you only get to choose TWO of those options.

The closest you can come to a "kit" for a TDI is to buy all the mounts, bellhousing, and tank for a factory Diesel Vanagon. Talk to Quality German Auto in California... he advertises regularly here and on Ebay.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=vwmotors
Or since you're in Washington, pay Justin at Greasworks a visit.
http://www.greaseworks.com/store/index.php?cPath=24&osCsid=sqf2ncl58p9mmb2jktqr2mhif0
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r39o
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:
Dont choose diesel thinking you will save money overall on fuel, it will take 150,000 miles to make up the $8,000, at todays gas and diesel prices, assuming you get 30mpg diesel, vs 20mpg gas

WORD

Plus 30mpg is NOT the norm, I am finding. More like 25 to 28 mpg.

A good friend says" "People spend a lot of money to try to save on fuel cost."

The ROI just does not seem to be there.....

(I own 2 TDis which we love, but also love the gas Vanagons, too....)
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuel economy is a benefit of diesel engines, but not the only rationale. Their simplicity typically ensures that diagnostics are narrowed down to what are usually easily identified fuel related issues with regard to running condition problems...which also favors going the mTDI route--fewer failure points. The application of readily available smooth low-end torque also is their signature. In a pinch, you can run them on just about any oily based fluid, like ATF, cooking oil, combinations of motor oil and gasoline, etc. And, at least in the MB community, it's easier and cheaper to push a turbodiesel to reliably double its power output than a comparable gasser engine of the same relative displacement.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eurospec has a sweet kit, that's pretty perfected...

http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/Vanagon/Vanagon%20Page.html
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jackbombay
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:

Plus 30mpg is NOT the norm, I am finding. More like 25 to 28 mpg.


Without notable extenuating circumstances my TDI westy never got below 30, pulling a trailer, driving into a 15+ mph headwind and the like would get it below 30, but most tanks were 31-33 MPG. All distances were GPS verified and all fill-ups were done so liquid fuel was right to the top of the rim of the filler neck so there was no fill error. I typically cruised at 60-65, at 50-55 MPG the van returned 40 MPG.

My van was an E-TDI which I believe is more efficient than an M-TDI.

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
...which also favors going the mTDI route--fewer failure points.


What parts have you read of failing that result in an inoperable vehicle?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:

Dont choose diesel thinking you will save money overall on fuel, it will take 150,000 miles to make up the $8,000, at todays gas and diesel prices, assuming you get 30mpg diesel, vs 20mpg gas


This.

Most westies/vanagons don't get enough miles put on them per year to make the swap make much sense from a financial standpoint.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:
Jon_slider wrote:

Dont choose diesel thinking you will save money overall on fuel, it will take 150,000 miles to make up the $8,000, at todays gas and diesel prices, assuming you get 30mpg diesel, vs 20mpg gas

This.
Most westies/vanagons don't get enough miles put on them per year to make the swap make much sense from a financial standpoint.

well if your a real westyifle then you will own that bread box till yer done
so everyone will get least 150K on their ride , ...
THEREFORE the only option is a diesel Smile
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
...which also favors going the mTDI route--fewer failure points.


What parts have you read of failing that result in an inoperable vehicle?


In my book, a failure impacts driveability (e.g. limp mode), and the eTDI has numerous components which can and will create those types of scenarios. Having said that, my old '96 Passat tdi never once triggered a code, even though the EGR completely occluded the intake manifold. I like both eTDI and mTDI, but just favor the latter for simplicity's sake.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
jackbombay wrote:

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
...which also favors going the mTDI route--fewer failure points.


What parts have you read of failing that result in an inoperable vehicle?


In my book, a failure impacts driveability (e.g. limp mode), and the eTDI has numerous components which can and will create those types of scenarios. Having said that, my old '96 Passat tdi never once triggered a code, even though the EGR completely occluded the intake manifold. I like both eTDI and mTDI, but just favor the latter for simplicity's sake.


Given the above bold type I can't see how limp mode is a particularly valid concern of yours. Even if the van does go into limp mode you can still go 60 MPH. There are lots of things that could happen, but if they rarely if ever do happen why worry about them?

Also, to clarify a little here, limp mode is pretty rare, most codes just light up the check engine light and don't trigger limp mode.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> eurospec has a sweet kit

cool, how much would it cost out the door for them to install a pump duse in a Syncro Westy, including regearing the tranny, changing wheel sizes, and solving the gas tank problem? (I emailed eurospec and pointed them to this thread)

> I typically cruised at 60-65

was that the van you sold for $8500?.. thats the kind of deal the OP needs Laughing

that was not a syncro westy.. I dont know what the OP has, maybe its a non syncro, non westy Rolling Eyes ..

the gas mileage figures I use are for a 5000 pound syncro westy at 75mph.. my 2.5 AEL gets 25mpg diesel.. my 2.2 subaru got 18mpg gas.. a difference of 39%

for more optimistic people, who go slower, a 2.2 subaru gets 20mpg, and a diesel gets 30.. which is a difference of 50%.. I used these very optimistic figures, and the cost of fuel today, to come up with 150,000 miles to make up 8000 dollars

it is not realistic in my world to cruise at 50mph, so 40mpg per diesel gallon in a syncro westy is not in my universe, but maybe the OP drives that slow Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

30 MPG is not optimistic based on my experience
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I felt my van was geared just right, and I had skinny tires on it, 195 75 16 hakka CS... Non syncro.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that TDI conversions are up there with Subaru conversions but they cost twice as much to do properly. By 'properly' I refer to gearbox rebuilds, water to air charge coolers and fluid engine and gearbox mounts.

I have had 36mpg from my 2.5tdi in a syncro 16 westy but this was before I tuned the engine. In stock trim, the 115bhp (200 ftlbs) just wasn't enough for driving it daily. I have thought many times about upgrading the engine again to start with more bhp/ftlbs so I don't have to tune it to make it livable with but I'm already at the point of transmission problems. If I manage to get the transmission to cope with 275ftlbs then I might think again and look at 3.0 V6 TDi conversions if can get around the can-bus but that's another story.

Currently, my mpg is around 30mpg and I'm still looking at ways to make the install quieter and smoother. These include dual mass flywheels, fluid mounts for the gearbox and a quieter exhaust system.

MG
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syncroghia, you run the tallest ring and pinion Ive heard of in a TDi, a 4.57, along with some of the largest tires anyone uses on a syncro.. I believe you have 245x75x16.. forgive if mistaken

I think if you were to use a 5.43 Ring and Pinion with that tire, you would be much happier with the stock power of the motor, and maybe would do less damage to the transaxle.. just a thought..

I run the same motor you do, and when I paired a 4.86 R&P with a 215x75x15 tire, I had excellent power with the stock motor, and excellent crawling ability.. pairing a 5.43 R&P with a 245x75x16 produces almost exactly the same final speeds..

I would use and recommend a 1.88 2nd, 1.08 3rd, and .7 4th with those tire and gearing pairs.. they put granny gear at about 8mph @ 3000 rpm, and 71mph @ 3000 rpm in 4th..

even though there are wider gaps than stock between 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4, those gears use the stock motor power to effectively cross the gaps without lag.

otoh, running a 225x75x16 tire with a 4.86 ring and pinion, leaves me wanting more power to fill the shift gaps, and leaves me wishing I could crawl slower.. a 245x75x16 makes the gaps even worse, and granny even faster

also chipping a motor does not really increase bottom end the way changing to a shorter ring and pinion does..

moral of the story, I would consider changing ring and pinion instead of increasing power..

and for folks reading fuel mileage, Syncroghia is in England, their gallons are bigger.. his 30mpg, is my 25mpg in USA
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