Author |
Message |
crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:00 pm Post subject: Radiator fan, less expensive replacement? |
|
|
This is for 82-85 vans and 86-91 2wd non A/C vans. Over the years I have had to replace a few radiator fans when the motors made bad bearing noise. There are some cheap new ones around for the later larger fan motor but I don't know of any for the older smaller units. To see if there was a tight budget solution I recently ordered a fan that fits other more common VW models that seemed like it might work. It sells for about $50-$100 shipped. Today I did some side by side testing of the replacement vs stock unit.
stock VW Vanagon part# 251 959 455G
300/200 watt 305mm 3 blade
near replacement VW part# 165 959 455AM
250/150 watt 280mm 6 blade
The new one fit the 3 shroud mounting holes fine. It does not have the wires attached like the original. It has 3 male spades for wires to attach. I was concerned before I tested it that the slightly weaker fan combined with the slightly smaller diameter fan blades might not move enough air. I am not worried any more.
I hooked the fans up to a charged 12 volt battery and put an meter in the circuit to measure how many amps each pulled on low and high speeds. I aimed the shroud mounted fans at my chair to gauge how much air was being moved.
stock fan = 12.5 amps high speed, 5.5 amps low speed
replacement = 11.4 amps high speed, 5.2 amps low speed
I could not really tell if one moved more air than the other. Both moved a ton of air on high and a lot less on low.
Mark
Last edited by crazyvwvanman on Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dampcamper Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013 Posts: 788 Location: Rainy Portland, Oregon
|
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Good job, Mark!
And somebody else still does "breadboarding"! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
0cean Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012 Posts: 1149 Location: California
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Does the replacement make less noise? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
No, this is the small motor version. Syncros and 86+ with A/C use a larger diameter motor with the same size blade. You can't easily mix the parts and the wiring is different too.
Mark
0cean wrote: |
Good stuff. Would this work in a 87 Syncro with AC? I don't know the differences between the models |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
For Syncros with AC and engine conversions I use fans from:
http://www.zirgo.com/
In some case I have a pusher and a puller, or one on either side of the condenser and radiator for amazing control of air flow.
These Zirgos are wisper quiet and draw far less than the stockers. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 16972 Location: Retired South Florida
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
insyncro wrote: |
For Syncros with AC and engine conversions I use fans from:
http://www.zirgo.com/
In some case I have a pusher and a puller, or one on either side of the condenser and radiator for amazing control of air flow.
These Zirgos are wisper quiet and draw far less than the stockers. |
Curious how you attach them?
Mark, thanks for sharing. Good info. _________________ ☮️ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
The front mounted fans get attached via the supplied ties that go through the condenser and the rear mounted ones are attached to a custom aluminum shroud I have had fabricated for this purpose.
I will show pictures of my current install of the indash AC and heating unit sold by Small Car / Vintage Air.
This will have some of these listed parts incorporated.
I have an early, 86 van, non PS, non AC and will order one of the non AC fans that Mark has listed to see how it works. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
smurfpike Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2010 Posts: 220 Location: Utah
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
insyncro wrote: |
For Syncros with AC and engine conversions I use fans from:
http://www.zirgo.com/
In some case I have a pusher and a puller, or one on either side of the condenser and radiator for amazing control of air flow.
These Zirgos are wisper quiet and draw far less than the stockers. |
What fan with CFM did you buy to put on the outside of your condenser to help push the air through or did you get one that sucks the air through? Did you notice a difference? I want to get something to help my Tiico run a little cooler while on the road and off road. _________________ 1965 Ottinger Tribute Overland Bus
IG @otter.the.overland.bus
FB Ottertheoverlandbus
IG Westyrestorations
FB WestyRestorations, parts and accessories
1987 Syncro "Big Red", Full restoration thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=606596
1978 Westy Camper, Full ground up restoration, restoration thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=593413 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fraggle00 Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2011 Posts: 356 Location: Bristow, VA
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Watt for watt these will have less cooling capability than the stock fan. The gap between the end of the blades and the housing needs to be minimized for the fan to best pull air through the radiator. _________________ '91 Vanagon Carat
'87 Porsche 928S4 DOWN
'12 Fiat 500 Abarth |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, that is why I said the smaller blade diameter was an initial concern of mine, gave the sizes, and posted photos that clearly showed the difference. The question is, how much of a difference does it really make in this application? Then, how to test for any difference?
Mark
fraggle00 wrote: |
Watt for watt these will have less cooling capability than the stock fan. The gap between the end of the blades and the housing needs to be minimized for the fan to best pull air through the radiator. |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
fraggle00 Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2011 Posts: 356 Location: Bristow, VA
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Best way to test would be to build some sort of system to meausre the cfm of each type. I don't know how to do that, so I think I'd just get everyrhing hot and measure the temp drop inloet to outlet of the radiator. _________________ '91 Vanagon Carat
'87 Porsche 928S4 DOWN
'12 Fiat 500 Abarth |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6777 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
fraggle00 wrote: |
Best way to test would be to build some sort of system to meausre the cfm of each type. I don't know how to do that, so I think I'd just get everyrhing hot and measure the temp drop inloet to outlet of the radiator. |
Get a wind speed indicator from a boating/sailing chandler. West Marine will probably have it on their website. It is a little handheld device with a fan blade that turns with the air going past it.
Measure an original 305mm fan vs the 280mm pulling air in past the radiator, but since you have the fan out try a cardboard box coming out from the fan shroud like a tunnel to see what get's sucked into the box.
[url] http://www.westmarine.com/search?text=wind+speed+indictor[/url] |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The fan's application is intended to create a low air pressure condition on the back side of the radiator so air will be pulled through the fins of the radiator. I was hoping for a simple way to measure that low pressure condition. I tried drilling a small few holes in different spots in the fan shroud and connecting an automotive vacuum gauge to them in turn but the negative pressure isn't low enough to register on the gauge. Naturally I mounted the fan/shroud to a Vanagon radiator before attempting the measurements. I then tried blocking most of the front side of the rad with a piece of cardboard but it didn't help. I guess I will try a water column manometer next.
Mark |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rotaecho Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2012 Posts: 513 Location: Nomadic Vanlifer
|
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: Awesome Hack |
|
|
Mark,
Awesome find and hack. I couldn't find any newer radiator fan only used; some looking pretty and others who knows.
It didn't make sense to upgrade the radiator with a new unit with new hoses, only to use a used fan to support it :/
Now the whole system is anew, thanks for this great hack with another VW part _________________ -Will
1982 Westfalia mTDI (50deg) aka Betsy Bertha
http://www.tdivanagons.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rotaecho Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2012 Posts: 513 Location: Nomadic Vanlifer
|
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Even though this is true regarding watt for watt, there is another factor that could off-set the results to be near the stock while still having less power.
The newer fan has more blades, and those blades are wider towards the center than my older fan's blades. This could give the fan better lift to push air which may result in not needing as much power.
While doing my own low & high tests, I can't tell much a difference if any similar to Mark's test.
fraggle00 wrote: |
Watt for watt these will have less cooling capability than the stock fan. The gap between the end of the blades and the housing needs to be minimized for the fan to best pull air through the radiator. |
_________________ -Will
1982 Westfalia mTDI (50deg) aka Betsy Bertha
http://www.tdivanagons.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
|
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
rotaecho wrote: |
Even though this is true regarding watt for watt, there is another factor that could off-set the results to be near the stock while still having less power.
The newer fan has more blades, and those blades are wider towards the center than my older fan's blades. This could give the fan better lift to push air which may result in not needing as much power.
While doing my own low & high tests, I can't tell much a difference if any similar to Mark's test.
fraggle00 wrote: |
Watt for watt these will have less cooling capability than the stock fan. The gap between the end of the blades and the housing needs to be minimized for the fan to best pull air through the radiator. |
|
If it draws more air, it should draw more watts, if there are gaps in the fan housing then the fan may draw less air thru the radiator also.
The power consumed is really a function of the air moved assuming the design and condition of the motors are equally efficient.
I rather pay the money for the correct fan than risk over heating.
the replacement fan is likely drawing about 8% less air at high setting than the stock fan, seeing as there is roughly about an 8% drop in current,
however since the replacement fan does not fit the stock shroud well, there are likely additional losses beyond the 8% as the fan will tend to draw air from around the large gaps in the shroud, air that did not pass thru the radiator, rather it would draw air that has already gone thru the fan, so the loss in air thru the radiator maybe be greater than the 8% that the reduced electrical load indicates. Not for me, thanks I rather be cool _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As I said in the original post it is a lower rated capacity fan. How much difference that will really make is unknown to me. In my experience it isn't that common for vans that use the stock smaller fan to run at high speed very often. With this weaker fan I would expect it to run longer on low and probably kick into high more often than before.
In order for any fan to give its maximum performance it must have a good connection to its power source, including a good ground. In particular the early diesel vans are more likely to have less than ideal power to the fan. I have remedied this on a couple of 82 diesel vans by adding a separate fuse panel for the rad fan and headlights, behind and above the glovebox. This fuse panel is wired to the starter main power stud so it gets a stronger voltage and has a shorter wiring path. I did this in conjunction with an aux battery setup under the front passenger seat and a 90 amp alternator upgrade. The improvement in the headlights was pretty dramatic and likewise with the rad fan performance.
Mark |
|
Back to top |
|
|
insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
|
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
I totally agree with Mark.
I too add a separate panel to keep the juice available for the peripherals that draw more.
The Zirgos I like are similar to LED lighting vs incandescents in the demand that they make for power when active. That's why I like them.
What Mark has shown is a great swap for those not wanting to build an entirely new system and keep VW parts.
He really knows his stuff and I for one appreciate his posts about electrical topics...his others also insightful, but I really dig how he thinks about the distribution of power in our vans. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
61Scout Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011 Posts: 1297 Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|