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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16916
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| djkeev wrote: |
It seems like no one really knows how they work or how to adjust them.
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we're here, just not talking much these days
the throw of the lever is directly associated with the shift points. if the manual valve lever isn't in synch with the throttle then you will have shitty/soft shift points.
if you made it longer, the range of the lever has been slowed down therefore causing all of your issues.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32718
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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I actually purchased a GPS unit with included speedometer display and figured I'd post for posterity in case anyone else runs into a similar issue with untrustworthy speedometer and working tach.
| vwfreek61 wrote: |
| Using the specs from the Bentley and a stock size tire it calculates out to about 2500-3500 for the 1-2 shift and 3000-3500 for the 2-3 shift. |
As I had suspected before, this is not correct. It does not take into account slippage in the torque converter which is at maximum at full throttle. When comparing GPS speed to tachometer, 2,900 rpms is equal to 14MPH. That is below the minimum upshift speed spec of 16MPH.
I believe the proper course of action at this point would be to pull the governor and make sure all parts are in good condition and moving freely. Assuming that is all correct, the next stop would be valve body.
Could anyone knowledgeable please describe what components within the valve body affect the 1-2 upshift? |
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oceanair
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2013
Posts: 720
Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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Anytime 
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84 Vanagon Pop Top Conversion from Tin Top, 1970 Ghia - all sweet rides! Love em!
Previous: Green 72 Tin Top, White 72 Westy, Blue 64 Beetle, Yellow 71 Squareback, 2014 Jetta TDI Wagon - wish I could have them all back! |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| The information of a 20MPH 1-2 shift along with your tire size is very useful. It is the closest anyone has come to answering the actual question I've been asking and as such is much appreciated. Thank you very much for that. |
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oceanair
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2013
Posts: 720
Location: Victoria, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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Man oh man -- this is a voluntary site and those taking time to help you are doing so out of their busy day. So, despite the fact that you come a cross rude and frustrated at those who are taking time and effort to help YOU, I have also taken time to help you.
I warmed up the 1984, 1.9 Auto today where it is normally garaged for the winter. I do not have a tach, so don't tell me you are talking to the wall, I am trying to help you, but I did get some MPH results.
Pedal to the floor, but no kick down, shift at 20MPH right where the little red dot on the speedo is. Second shift at 41MPH, right where the two red dots on the speedo are.
Sorry if that MPH reading drives you mad, but it's as good as anyone here is willing to do for you it seems. I ride on 215/65/R16s. You can do the math.
Perhaps try another tactic -- thanks and respect for other's efforts to help you.
_________________
84 Vanagon Pop Top Conversion from Tin Top, 1970 Ghia - all sweet rides! Love em!
Previous: Green 72 Tin Top, White 72 Westy, Blue 64 Beetle, Yellow 71 Squareback, 2014 Jetta TDI Wagon - wish I could have them all back! |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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Aside from the fact that I have tried all of the recommended adjustments without even one iota of effect on the shift point at 'full throttle pre-kickdown"...
Consider the fact that there is only one lever on the trans and that lever encompasses the range of throttle and pedal motion from idle to full throttle and into kickdown itself. Also consider the fact that the 'full throttle pre-kickdown' position is a singular position of that one lever on the trans, where it is resting against the kickdown, but not pushing into the kickdown range - that singular position of that lever is determined by the transmission itself and not the throttle or pedal. Consider further the fact that all adjustments to the accelerator pedal/cable or throttle linkage rod will still find that lever in the exact same position for 'full throttle pre-kickdown', because that position is a function of the transmission itself and not a function of the throttle or the pedal.
Considering all of those FACTS, how can adjusting the linkage rod (external to trans) or accelerator cable (external to trans) ever result in any change to the shift rpm (internal to trans) when for any possible adjustment, the trans lever MUST always be in the same position when it is 'full throttle pre-kickdown' and that trans lever position is the only input to the trans that determines shift point rpm? |
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OddN
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2010
Posts: 690
Location: Northern Norway
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:28 am Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| Unbelievable. I HAVE adjusted the rod both ways. I either LOSE idle or LOSE full throttle pre-kickdown. Adjusting the rod either way does *NOT* affect the pre-kickdown upshift rpm AT ALL. |
I agree with the ones telling you to adjust the rod length.
BUT: You need to shorten the wire in order not to loose idle or full throttle. I suspect you havent done that, or?
Under the floor up front there is a plastic box and inside that you can adjust the wire.
Maybe not a good explanation, but the total length of wire+rod needs to be constant. Otherwise you loose either idle or full throttle. So if you lengthen the rod, you must shorten the wire, and oposite.
In that way you can adjust the shift point.
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:11 am Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| Unbelievable. I HAVE adjusted the rod both ways. I either LOSE idle or LOSE full throttle pre-kickdown. Adjusting the rod either way does *NOT* affect the pre-kickdown upshift rpm AT ALL. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50464
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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Adjust the rod and you can have your tranny shifting up at 4000 rpms if you want or keep claiming you have the rod adjusted to perfection and live with it shifting at 2900.
I'm done here. |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:58 am Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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It seems like I'm talking to a wall. I DO have the additional rod traven into the kickdown range.
As I have stated repeatedly, the throttle linkage rod is adjusted TO PERFECTION. I get full range of throttle from idle to full throttle stops before hitting the kickdown range. The kickdown range is then correctly accessible by pressing the pedal further. When accessing the kickdown range, the spring at the end of the rod compresses as it should (while the throttle is still fully open) and allows the kickdown. Kickdown functions properly with the correct downshift of the trans when accessed. Adjusting the linkage rod at this point is a NON-STARTER. It can only result in either losing the idle position of the throttle if adjusted one way, or losing full throttle pre-kickdown if adjusted the other.
BTW, your two quotes are backwards regarding who said what.
Yes, I now understand that at this point if I want to raise the full pedal pre-kickdown upshift rpm, I will need to adjust governor (or maybe valve body, but governor would be easier).
What I still do not know definitively... is what I have asked over, and over, and over since post 1... Is the (irritatingly early) full throttle pre-kickdown 2,900 rpm 1-2 upshift correct stock behavior or does it indicate an internal issue in the trans (e.g. line pressure, governor, valve body)? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50464
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| danfromsyr? wrote: |
| Ok, then that's a non-starter. The range of motion of the pedal/throttle/kickdown is all perfect. |
| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| there are only 2 points of input to the transmission that is only impacted either by the governor or the manual valve (relay lever) |
Dan and I are telling you the same thing, that your throttle rod which gives input from the engine to the relay lever/manual valve is not adjusted correctly, that is your only adjustment unless you want to start whittling away at your governor weights or grinding off/shimming springs in the valve body neither of which are recommended or mentioned in the Bentley. The system is set up with a slight amount of additional travel in the throttle rod, which is why there is a spring at the throttle body. If you don't have additional travel then adjust the rod as suggested and then figure out why there is insufficient travel. |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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djkeev, thanks for the link. I enjoyed looking through it, but I do not read German.
Wildthings, no adjustment of the throttle linkage (from where it is now) can possibly make any significant rise in the pre-kickdown full pedal upshift rpms. If you reread the discussion that I had with danfromsyr, you can see that clearly. The only thing that it can achieve at this point is to reduce the throttle opening and consequently power at that pedal position.
I will call it good for now. The van drives quite well overall and it is a minor detail. I will confirm speedo accuracy when I can and compare shift speeds to the Bentley. If I run out of other things to do (ha ha ha) I might shave some weight off the governor to raise the shift points. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32718
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50464
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:55 am Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| If it isn't shifting correctly then... |
That is the question I keep asking... is a 2,900 rpm full throttle upshift from 1-2 correct or is it an early shift that indicates a fault (e.g. in line pressure, governor, or valve body)?
If I were to lengthen the rod 1/8", the throttle would no longer be pulled to full throttle prior to entering kickdown. If I were to shorten the rod 1/8", the throttle would no longer reach idle when there was not any pressure on the pedal. |
The adjustment of the throttle rod is the first adjustment to make in my mind, you can then adjust the cable as need be. The 1/8" adjustment suggested above is actually likely way more than needed, you may only need 1/2 or one turn of the adjustment screw as the system is pretty sensitive. This is a seat of the pants adjustment, just keep adjusting it until you like the way the tranny shifts. |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| Indeed. I do not trust the speedo or the calcs. I do not actually have GPS but have been planning on hitting up a friend in order to confirm the accuracy of the speedo and to check how the shift points fall with regard to the spec. |
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vwfreek61
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2004
Posts: 350
Location: Green Bay, WI
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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| vwfreek61 wrote: |
| Using the specs from the Bentley and a stock size tire it calculates out to about 2500-3500 for the 1-2 shift and 3000-3500 for the 2-3 shift. |
Looks like it falls within spec.
If you don't trust the gear ratio calculations or speedometer. Put a GPS on it and see if the MPH falls in the range specified in the Bentley manual
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1964 Bug with Saxomat
1976 VW/Harley Trike Autostick
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15156
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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yeah I'm tapping out here too..
I'm certain there's more 1.9AT knowledgeable folk around here than us 2.
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| Abscate wrote: |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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Ok, then that's a non-starter. The range of motion of the pedal/throttle/kickdown is all perfect. I get full range of throttle and kickdown works correctly.
When holding the pedal right before kickdown, the 1-2 upshift occurs at 2,900 rpms. That seems irritatingly early for full throttle. I'd prefer the 1-2 full throttle upshift closer to 4,000 rpms so 2nd gear starts with a bit more power. Yes, I know I can use the kickdown range to keep it from upshifting until higher rpms, or use the shifter to hold it in 1 longer but that's an irritating way to drive an automatic.
My two questions in this thread have been:
1. Is a full throttle (no kickdown) 1-2 upshift at 2,900 correct or is it early and indicative of a fault (e.g. line pressure, governor, valve body)?
2. Is there a way to adjust the shift points? How? |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15156
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: '85 Automatic Shift Points |
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it doesn't take much variation in position of the lever
think about it.
there is adjustment at both ends of the throttle assembly.. with a fixed point on the lever in the middle.
but anyways.. what is your problem that asked the original question? that it gets into gear too soon..
there are only 2 points of input to the transmission that is only impacted either by the governor or the manual valve (relay lever).
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