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Rust Repair, 74 Super Convertible
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Rust Repair, 74 Super Convertible Reply with quote

EDIT: I've changed the title, this has over time morphed into a blog of "freshening" my 74 Super Vert. Not a full RESTORATION so I'll call it a Freshtoration. (yeah, I know it's a stupid term Embarassed )

So, I've got a 69 Ghia I'm "rebuilding" yeah, right! It's taking up a lot of garage space and has become a giant shelf for all manner of stuff. Hasn't been touched for almost a year!!

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Since I picked up the 74 Super Vert it seems that all of my efforts, money and time have been spent on the Super. Mostly time is spent just driving it and enjoying it though.

This summer, seeing Ghia's cruising around and after drooling over the limited show of Ghia's at the All Air Cooled Gathering, I've decided that I really want the Ghia on the Road. I'm ok with having the Super Vert and all, but really want the Ghia. In order to finish the Ghia properly, I need the space the Super is taking in the garage and I need the $$'s for some big ticket Ghia toys... air conditioning, new seats, etc.

In clear conscience I cannot sell the Super for any decent $'s without making some needed repairs. I knew the running boards were toast and a few out breaks of rust where the fender meets the body so I order up some pieces and begin to disassemble....yeah, you know where this is headed!

The running board mount is toast so I order up a new one and oh yeah, the splash panel in front of the lower door hinge is swiss cheese so I get that panel too, for both sides. (PO had undercoated.....ahem HIDDEN rust with under coating)
I begin cutting and welding and all is well but I notice a few spots on the inner fender behind the horn, I fix them, (strut mounts are good and solid) wait! the seam by the back wheel is bulging a little so I excavate that and fix it, a little running board rust on the interior by the back seat heater pipe, I fix that, Some areas where the fender bolts onto the body are perforated, more patching and welding, wait! is that BODY PUTTY on the front floor?!?!? Yep, sure is.... I install a new drivers floor. (PO had poorly done both rears years ago) A paint crack here, a dent there and now I find body putty on the lower 1/4 panel below the back window.... RUST covered with bondo!!! Previous OWNERS!!!!!! Crappy fast fixes!!

It's coming together, I've only done the drivers side but the car will be solid, runs well, no Super shimmy and will be looking good to sell. I've watched my profits flying away (no surprise) but I'll sleep better knowing that I didn't rip some innocent person off by passing off puttied over rust as a quality unit!

Question, how far does one go?? I don't want to keep the car but the parking light and tail light lenses are crazed and faded, the chrome is rusty, the windshield has white edge disease, the door panels are warped......I don't want to rebuild the car but at the same time a nice car is a nice car and easier to sell to many people.
At what point does a buyer NOT care and the price isn't affected? Little cosmetic things I think some owners might enjoy doing, door panels, etc, other potential buyers probably want a completely done nice looking car.
I don't want to price myself out of the market, it is just a 74 Super, there is only so much value here. It will never be a perfect restoration without a lot of work, too many PO's have been messing with it over the years. There are a lot of Mid 70's Verts for sale, for $6000 and up....they don't seem to be moving.
I'm shooting for a high $4000 range, I'm thinking that this is reasonable for a solid "refreshed" car that needs some cosmetics in the rusty North East, or am I nuts to think this?
Or would these buyers prefer that it is 100% cosmetic and pay $7000 or more??
What would YOU prefer? What would you do in my shoes?

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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert


Last edited by djkeev on Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:28 pm; edited 6 times in total
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60ragtop Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

post it for sale for best offer and cut your losses Wink
It never ends try to find a quitting point for a perfectionist Razz
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dirtkeeper
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would do as little as possible. If it starts and runs good, shine it up, maybe replace the foggy windshield if its noticeable.

Not sure about out there but i dont see a huge market for these cars except for certain enthusiast, who would prefer to probably do the work them selves.

I see the price people have on these cars and i am not surprised they do not sell..

for example here in cali i see a lot of decent unrestored bugs for under 3K and nice mostly restored for about 5K. As far as transportation you can get a much better car for the money.

just a little example
Getting a new car for my wife, i'm eying a 2000 bmw 328 i, 100k Miles great condition for $3K. Obviously, besides some nostalgia or personal desire for a bug, the bmw ( and many other similar quality and priced cars) are a far better value.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you fixed all that rust, there is evidence of no more, and thing runs, drives, and stops well, I'd stop fixxing and start selling. $5 seems fair, but I can't tell if you repainted it?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Profit? Profit? What's that? Smile

I would grab a pad and start writing down some numbers. Do the reverse of what you would do if you were looking at a car for sale. Start with the realistic selling price if the car needed nothing. Then start deducting all the things you know about. See what you end up with. You may be in the negative numbers.

So if that's the case, put it up for sale, say "As Is", and let the buyer do their homework. If they ask questions, answer them honestly. If they don't ask questions, it's not your responsibility to volunteer information. Be prepared to take less, and consider yourself ahead of the game.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the rust is half fixed right now. I can't very well have a solid left half and a rusty Right half, without calling it an uncompleted project. I've got to push on and finish the rust repairs.

No, I'm not totally repainting it, portions will be repainted because of the rust repairs I had to make on the rear quarters and where the fender rust was.

That picture is about a year old, when I first got it on the road. Looks nice but I had to go and make it "better"!! Stupid ME!! Laughing

I'll finish up the body work and maybe leave all of the little "easy" to do items to the next owner. At least he/she will start with solid metal and can improve cosmetically upon it.

Thanks for the feed back.
No, there will be no "profit" if you count my time invested and I do aim to sell it at a "fair" price. I imagine I'll wait till Spring when "drop top" fever takes hold of the masses.

If it doesn't sell, it only cost $100 a year to insure, I guess having two ACVW's won't kill me, I can finish the Ghia without this cash, but............

Dave
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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

since you are doing the welding yourself, you cost to finish the rust repair is low. I would finish the rust repair before I tried to sell it. Most of us doing have the welding capability, so if I were looking at it, the body being solid would be a big factor.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

for every Dollar you put into that car - you will get $.25 back
Maaco paint it - sell it - cut your losses

life is very short!

Do your repair work for money - from craigs list - you can get $50 an hour with your talent --
There is where the money is !


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop the work. Start at $4000 Obo. See what you get. Start the Ghia. Every minute on the bug is a minute lost on the Ghia.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are a decent man Charlie Brown, er um Dave. I wish my PO were as conscientious as you. Smile

You are on the right track thinking to wait until Spring to sell. Time it for the better weather and when people are getting their IRS refunds to use on a splurge (March).

I don't think there is anything wrong with a car in need of a partial resto. When I was looking for a bug, half of the idea was to get something to do as a hobby but with a little instant gratification too (as in drivable). I recently posted a poll on Samba's General/Chat forum asking if people are more into driving or fixing up their ACVWs (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481471). In the highly scientific, double blind survey Wink a third of the respondents get their biggest kicks working on their cars. So I would argue there is a good market for a bug in your condition. Not a wreck but not perfect either.

Iíve been watching the market for 73 and 74 SB converts on eBay for a year now (in part because I am interested to see what others have done to theirs and in part because I am glutton for punishment to see just how much I overpaid for mine Embarassed ) and I would venture you could easily get $4-5K. Post lots of pictures, write a detailed description and be honest (which you obviously will be) about what still needs to be done. Make it clear you know ACVW. Keep the starting price low ($1000) but have a reserve. Cars that have these sort of postings tend to sell and at the higher prices. Iíve seen many seemingly good bugs with lousy postings that should sell but donít because the seller doesnít have a clue on how to market their car.

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerryMCarter1 wrote:
for every Dollar you put into that car - you will get $.25 back
Maaco paint it - sell it - cut your losses

life is very short!

Do your repair work for money - from craigs list - you can get $50 an hour with your talent --
There is where the money is !


Jerry


I ran my numbers for mine and its about $0.016 for each $1 I put in mine....

Unless you have a buyer that is set on your car and will not take no for an answer, I don't think you will get a lot out of the car.

I just saw a bug this week, total rust box, and "needs work to run" $7k and had no work done to it....
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And moving onto the Drivers Door........was only going to clean it and freshen it up, the PO didn't have the vent window screwed in under the rubber so the entire assembly flopped side to side:!! I also purchased a new vent window seal and upper pivot pin a year ago that I never installed. Thought I'd lube and adjust only to find..........

More Rust!!!! Not a hard fix, a little cut and paste, I'm actually laughing now!

I know I won't "make" any money on this car, it was never my intention, I purchased it to fix and drive. Only recently did I even entertain the thought of selling it.
First, thanks for the good comments, I see a personal plan developing from your comments.
First, the comment about being able to weld and selling an already repaired car, that those who cannot weld would like this presented to them.
Secondly, the comment about the poll and that 1/3 of the responders like to tinker on their cars.
I'm having fun, getting in practice for the Ghia (it's been years since I've done body work / welding so my skills are "rusty"!) I'm happy with the results and it will end up being a nice looking car, maybe I'll go with the original plan and DRIVE it!!

Bottom rear of drivers door.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Doing so much Door and side panel work, I'm Thinking I'm going to keep the Bahia Red from 74 (it started life Ravenna Green Shocked ) and two tone it with an off white to blend with the top....THINKING!?!!? Heck, I purchased the paint two days ago....change that to DECIDED)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave
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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert


Last edited by djkeev on Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have room to do all this work on the Super, then you have room to do the Ghia too!! Keep them both and enjoy them both!!!! No one will ever feel about your old bug the way you do!! After putting all that work into it, do you really want to sell it? You are putting money into a car that will sell for less than you are putting into it, to get money to put in your other car. That kind of math is why kids are failing school these days LOL. Keep them both and be happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kburg12 wrote:
If you have room to do all this work on the Super, then you have room to do the Ghia too!! Keep them both and enjoy them both!!!! No one will ever feel about your old bug the way you do!! After putting all that work into it, do you really want to sell it? You are putting money into a car that will sell for less than you are putting into it, to get money to put in your other car. That kind of math is why kids are failing school these days LOL. Keep them both and be happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It isn't poor Math skills but rather of not really wanting two of these cars. I can afford to not sell it and that may be what I end up doing. I'm into the car really inexpensively as far as cash outlay. It's my time I'm losing if I lose at all. I'll Wait and see what happens.
Thanks for the advice!

Dave
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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing the door repairs....


Bottom rear of drivers door.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


About 1 hour invested so far in this door repair patch, time for evening relaxation......

Patch piece bent, rough hole cut for it, will nip and fit until it sets in flush with the old metal.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cut out the old, fit it more exactly and welded in on the door bottom...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Welded in a new door seal flange and ground off welds. Still detail work to do on flange and "B" pillar hinge side seal flange to weld on (where ground clamp is), but almost done....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continuing on, another 1 1/2 hours and it's ready for scratch fill, primer and color.

"B" Pillar seal flange welded on. Still needs a little grinding....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


First primer coat....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On to the next rusty spot!!! The rear fender!! See that bubbling paint to the right of the tail light? That in almost all the way through. It's going to be a cut out and weld in process. The bumper hole, straightening is all that's needed. The rear apron, bubbling lifting paint....oh joy!!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave
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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work, keep it up.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is a lot of work Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexvw wrote:
Good work, keep it up.


Yeah, it's coming along. That rear fender will finish off the driver's side body repairs so I can get it painted. I'm losing my good painting window with Winter rushing in!!
I'm not finishing the floor pan just yet, I want to get the Passenger side body done as well. I can weld in floors during the winter months inside the garage and do the interior without worry of being too cold or collecting fumes inside a closed area.

JerryMCarter1 wrote:
that is a lot of work Dave


Yes, It is a lot of work. I don't know the cars ultimate future. I plan on a sale but I may keep it for I'm not giving it away. If I don't get value on a sale I'll just have a pair of Type I's Laughing
Whatever way it goes I figure at least I'm preserving a bit of the past for someone in the future!! At least I am slowing down cancer's relentless march, but I'm not naive enough to think that I'm completely stopping it!

Dave
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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So happily the Right rear fender isn't as bad as I thought! Good NEWS!!

The rust perforation was only along the bolt on edge towards the body and the fender surface ended up with solid metal after grinding off the rust.

Cut out the rust and welded in some metal, treat the rust and putty it up and all will be well!

In the grinding process I've found that this fender is a replacement being from a Gold Beetle. Who knows why or when!?!?

The worst of the perforation.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


a 2nd perforated spot...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


1st successful metal graft...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


2nd graft...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Edit: Fender primed, ready for sanding and color coat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now to quickly turn the car around (have if favoring one wall to give working space) and pull the other two fenders. A few quick repairs and maybe, just maybe I'll have some paint on this before this warm early October break fades away!!

Dave
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86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert


Last edited by djkeev on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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