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Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:30 pm

EVfun wrote: heimlich wrote: If everyone sold off all their cars because they don't like the person who made them we'd all be walking. There's VW and its history everyone knowns.

BMW was saved by a Nazi family. You tube took down the video explaining it so here's a copy: https://www.bitchute.com/video/ErEpxluAiaOM/

Ford was a very well-known Antisemite.

All of those companies are successful even today.
While I agree with your above statements about VW, BMW, and Ford, why would I be walking? VW is a very different company post WWII. I would keep my Bug based beach buggy, my American made Toyota Tacoma, and my American made Hyundai Tucson -- and drive them.

(I may sell my '04 Tacoma single cab 2wd 5-speed Tacoma this year. Now retired, I only put 1038 miles on it last year -- and it only has 72k miles on it since I bought it new.)

I was being facetious in that we all drive VW and if the history meant anything to us we wouldn't. I doubt anyone today associates VW with Hitler anymore. VW has done so much to try to make their past right. They are probably the only company that has gone above and beyond in making their past wrongs right.

Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:33 pm

heimlich wrote: EVfun wrote: heimlich wrote: If everyone sold off all their cars because they don't like the person who made them we'd all be walking. There's VW and its history everyone knowns.

BMW was saved by a Nazi family. You tube took down the video explaining it so here's a copy: https://www.bitchute.com/video/ErEpxluAiaOM/

Ford was a very well-known Antisemite.

All of those companies are successful even today.
While I agree with your above statements about VW, BMW, and Ford, why would I be walking? VW is a very different company post WWII. I would keep my Bug based beach buggy, my American made Toyota Tacoma, and my American made Hyundai Tucson -- and drive them.

(I may sell my '04 Tacoma single cab 2wd 5-speed Tacoma this year. Now retired, I only put 1038 miles on it last year -- and it only has 72k miles on it since I bought it new.)

I was being facetious in that we all drive VW and if the history meant anything to us we wouldn't. I doubt anyone today associates VW with Hitler anymore. VW has done so much to try to make their past right. They are probably the only company that has gone above and beyond in making their past wrongs right.

This is Irony.
A picture I took at the former Mitsubishi assembly plant in Normal, Illinois. The lot has thousands of Volkswagens recalled from deceiving emissions testing. The assembly plant is now home to Rivian EV production.

-Illinois is considered part of the Heartland of America.
-Mitsubishi was famous for their aerospace engineering during the 1940’s :wink:
-Volkswagen known for cheating and a well known history in the 1940’s
-Rivian making EV cars that piss off many folks.

All of them enjoy brand loyalty and your wellbeing :lol:

Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:19 pm

Bulli Klinik wrote: I visited Dachau when I was a kid.

It should be a prerequisite for anyone who lets the N-word roll off their lips.

Many people were sent to Dachau for letting the wrong words roll off their lips. :cry:

Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:36 pm

heimlich wrote: EVfun wrote: heimlich wrote: If everyone sold off all their cars because they don't like the person who made them we'd all be walking. There's VW and its history everyone knowns.

BMW was saved by a Nazi family. You tube took down the video explaining it so here's a copy: https://www.bitchute.com/video/ErEpxluAiaOM/

Ford was a very well-known Antisemite.

All of those companies are successful even today.
While I agree with your above statements about VW, BMW, and Ford, why would I be walking? VW is a very different company post WWII. I would keep my Bug based beach buggy, my American made Toyota Tacoma, and my American made Hyundai Tucson -- and drive them.

(I may sell my '04 Tacoma single cab 2wd 5-speed Tacoma this year. Now retired, I only put 1038 miles on it last year -- and it only has 72k miles on it since I bought it new.)

I was being facetious in that we all drive VW and if the history meant anything to us we wouldn't. I doubt anyone today associates VW with Hitler anymore. VW has done so much to try to make their past right. They are probably the only company that has gone above and beyond in making their past wrongs right.

I had neighbor, fought in Okinawa, would never buy a Japanese car, Very upset when his adult daughter bought one, his wife however drove a Bug.

When I was young, with my Bug, people would call my car "hitlers revenge" or say there was a Jew in every ashtray when referring to a Bug. War was still fresh memory back then, many vets of that war, and victims still alive. I used to see a lady on a city bus back in the 70's, in California , with the death camp serial number tatoo on her fore arm. The old guy I bought a Ghia from had a hitler youth badge on the ghia dash, he was 12 years old when the war ended, and was in that group, he came over here in his 20s as a machinist. Good school friend of mines mom actually saw hitler in a parade when she was a child.
History of that is but a generation removed now,the last of those dying off.
Heck my granddad was born before the airplane was invented,
Today youth look at me and think I is ancient, born before the home computer, or the era of land line phones, the Vietnam war, Kennedy getting shot, the moon landing.
thats all, i needs to take a nap now, I tire easy. :wink:

Sat Feb 22, 2025 7:35 am

Wow.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/advan...-exemption

That has to really raise costs of anything that requires a commercial vehicle to do work with.

Sat Feb 22, 2025 8:06 am

^ the bureaucratic acronyms are strong in that link, what a load of guff! :roll:

Sat Feb 22, 2025 8:24 am

zerotofifty wrote: While I agree with your above statements about VW, BMW, and Ford, why would I be walking? VW is a very different company post WWII. I would keep my Bug based beach buggy, my American made Toyota Tacoma, and my American made Hyundai Tucson -- and drive them.

When I was young, with my Bug, people would call my car "hitlers revenge" or say there was a Jew in every ashtray when referring to a Bug. War was still fresh memory back then, many vets of that war, and victims still alive.
My dad was in the Army Air Corps in Europe, 1942 until the end of the European war. In 1957 he bought my mom a car, a 1957 VW Convertible. In the early 1960s he leased a little Mercedes convertible, in the 1970s he leased a BMW.

So I didn't get any flack when I purchased my 1970 VW in 1972, or when I bought my 1971 VW convertible in 1976 and let y mom drive it as her daily for a few years. I've also had a used Chevy Luv, used 1979 Toyota truck, and still have a 1988 Mazda truck, all made in Japan. My 1998 and 2004 Nissan Frontiers were manufactured in USA.

Sat Feb 22, 2025 8:30 am

heimlich wrote: Wow.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/advan...-exemption

That has to really raise costs of anything that requires a commercial vehicle to do work with.

I don’t understand why a zero emissions vehicle exemption form for a fleet raises costs. What am I missing here?

Sat Feb 22, 2025 11:34 am

Xevin wrote: What am I missing here?

Quote: This exemption allows a fleet owner to remain in compliance by purchasing a new internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle of the same configuration instead of a ZEV or NZEV.

basically they are forcing people to buy the "next generation" of truck...even if it is ICE to 'stay compliant'

get your payment book ready:

How much does a 2025 Kenworth W900 cost?

$199,995.00. - Model Year: 2025 - Model: W900 - Engine: Cummins X15, 565 hp @ 1900 RPM,

for ONE truck, plus tax and insurance.

Imagine being a small fleet with say 3-5 trucks. you're looking at being forced to spend 1M (plus tax etc) just to be compliant.

I say bail out of CA and let every fucker in there starve. this is what you want, this is what you got. maybe they can haul everything with fuckin unicorns and rainbow flatbeds

Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:06 pm

Xevin wrote: heimlich wrote: EVfun wrote: heimlich wrote: If everyone sold off all their cars because they don't like the person who made them we'd all be walking. There's VW and its history everyone knowns.

BMW was saved by a Nazi family. You tube took down the video explaining it so here's a copy: https://www.bitchute.com/video/ErEpxluAiaOM/

Ford was a very well-known Antisemite.

All of those companies are successful even today.
While I agree with your above statements about VW, BMW, and Ford, why would I be walking? VW is a very different company post WWII. I would keep my Bug based beach buggy, my American made Toyota Tacoma, and my American made Hyundai Tucson -- and drive them.

(I may sell my '04 Tacoma single cab 2wd 5-speed Tacoma this year. Now retired, I only put 1038 miles on it last year -- and it only has 72k miles on it since I bought it new.)

I was being facetious in that we all drive VW and if the history meant anything to us we wouldn't. I doubt anyone today associates VW with Hitler anymore. VW has done so much to try to make their past right. They are probably the only company that has gone above and beyond in making their past wrongs right.

This is Irony.
A picture I took at the former Mitsubishi assembly plant in Normal, Illinois. The lot has thousands of Volkswagens recalled from deceiving emissions testing. The assembly plant is now home to Rivian EV production.

-Illinois is considered part of the Heartland of America.
-Mitsubishi was famous for their aerospace engineering during the 1940’s :wink:
-Volkswagen known for cheating and a well known history in the 1940’s
-Rivian making EV cars that piss off many folks.

All of them enjoy brand loyalty and your wellbeing :lol:

The sad part about VW...."deceiving"....as you note....is that they did not have to do that to for their cars to be competitive at all. As for mileage and emissions, their TDI diesels at that point in time were already beating BMW and others (by a slim margin) in mileage, HP/Tq and emissions.....just using DEF injection like everyone else was using...which 90% of the "cheating" vehicles were already plumbed and wired for.

They did it....cheated.....to say their vehicles did not need DEF injection... to reach sales supremacy of 1 million vehicles into the US market alone. The hook....the lure....was that by not using the DEF/urea fluid injection that everyone else was using, they saved a waste product and an every 2 year service at ~$250 to $300. So it made their car look greener and cheaper to operate.

The stupid fact....if you looked at the test data published by West VA tech where the testing was done....is that yes....the car violated emissions standards by some 65-75%...as the media crudely and incompletely statex.....but only about 10% of the time. It only reached nasty levels of particulate emissions at maximum acceleration and at full throttle cruise. In fact it rarely violated C02 standards because diesels are typically about 16% lower C02 than gasoline engines in the first place.

No.....they made a $25 billion example out of VW...simply for two reasons.
1. They were the first ones caught
2. They were proud of being the largest conglomerate auto manufacturer in the world....and this knocked them down from that.

The even sadder part that was buried in the news over the next five years....is that Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Renault, BMW/mini and Volvo just off the top of my head....also got caught cheating in the same testing program at WV tech....two of which also had installed cheating software.....most paid a few billion $ at most. Several of them litigated long enough that the window for prosecution expired and they did not even get their hands slapped

So when people bitch about the Vw scandal I typically say bullshit and who cares. If any of them cheated they should get the same $25 billion foot in the ass or no one should.

In short....VW caved to public opinion. They should have fought it hard. You can do a lot of litigation for $25 billion.
Vw was made a political example of by the climate lobby and the US car mfg lobbies combined. VW's TDI's were beating everyone's as.....better styling, good performance and overall better cost even WITH the DEF fluid issue. A lot of this was protectionist action by and for American car manufacturers.

I remember the thread on VW diesel scandal....all of the whiners screaming...."but they lied and DAMAGED our atmosphere" :roll: :roll: :roll: .....when in fact the math was done by many scientists and showed that the ~500,000 vehicles here in the US, over a 2 year period ....put out about the same particulate and C02 ....combined....as about three days emissions from a coal fired power plant. Damage my ass!

Ray

Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:21 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Xevin wrote: What am I missing here?

Quote: This exemption allows a fleet owner to remain in compliance by purchasing a new internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle of the same configuration instead of a ZEV or NZEV.

basically they are forcing people to buy the "next generation" of truck...even if it is ICE to 'stay compliant'

get your payment book ready:

How much does a 2025 Kenworth W900 cost?

$199,995.00. - Model Year: 2025 - Model: W900 - Engine: Cummins X15, 565 hp @ 1900 RPM,

for ONE truck, plus tax and insurance.

Imagine being a small fleet with say 3-5 trucks. you're looking at being forced to spend 1M (plus tax etc) just to be compliant.

I say bail out of CA and let every fucker in there starve. this is what you want, this is what you got. maybe they can haul everything with fuckin unicorns and rainbow flatbeds

These mandates a HUGE financial burden . Some years ago the state mandated a huge number of trucks be replaced, good serviceable trucks were to be replaced. There was a yard in San Jose where many of these now outlawed trucks went. From there these trucks had their cabs removed, so they could squeeze the rest of the truck into shipping containers, destination was the Philippines where new cabs were installed. Did this stop these trucks from spewing CO2 into the air, NO. But it did cost our businesses millions upon millions of unneeded expenses.
Once the rulers are done mandating commercial trucks are turned in, well guess what, your classic VWs will be next. And dont you doubt it.

As for Californians, take heed that around 60% of the people did vote for the rulers that are doing this, around 40% did not. and of that 60%, a good number simply did not realize the extent of these regulations.
I understand that CARB, which is the state organization doing this damage may become illegal thanks to new Federal regulations. I sure hope so, as that means the EV mandates maybe reversed. The alternative is huge raising costs, and eventual banning of our beloved classic VW's, all to be replaced with expensive electric cars with poor range, fire hazards, long recharge times, their own environmental damage, and not enough electric power to keep them charged. The one size fits all of these electric car and truck mandates is very wrong. Believe me, a very large number of the people in California do not want this. :cry:

First they came for the commercial trucks and no one cared, then they came for the gas water heater, and no one cared, then the stoves, and no one cared, finally they came for our classic VW's and there was nothing we could do about it.

Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:39 pm

CARB has outlived its usefulness. Now it is run by zealots without regard to the cost to the public.

At one time (late '60s/early '70s) it was critical to establishing tougher standards for California... and a success. We all (Cali and non-Cali) breathe cleaner air as a result.

But that problem, and solution, are history... but since no Gub'm'nt bureaucracy ever dies, it now looks for things to do. Time to kill it.

Mandating no gas stoves and going all-electric, while we are reminded daily to stay off-peak and conserve electricity, regular power brownouts... there isn't enough power to do it, regardless of expense.

Sat Feb 22, 2025 2:36 pm

raygreenwood wrote: The sad part about VW...."deceiving"....as you note....is that they did not have to do that to for their cars to be competitive at all. As for mileage and emissions, their TDI diesels at that point in time were already beating BMW and others (by a slim margin) in mileage, HP/Tq and emissions.....just using DEF injection like everyone else was using...which 90% of the "cheating" vehicles were already plumbed and wired for.

They did it....cheated.....to say their vehicles did not need DEF injection... to reach sales supremacy of 1 million vehicles into the US market alone. The hook....the lure....was that by not using the DEF/urea fluid injection that everyone else was using, they saved a waste product and an every 2 year service at ~$250 to $300. So it made their car look greener and cheaper to operate.

The stupid fact....if you looked at the test data published by West VA tech where the testing was done....is that yes....the car violated emissions standards by some 65-75%...as the media crudely and incompletely statex.....but only about 10% of the time. It only reached nasty levels of particulate emissions at maximum acceleration and at full throttle cruise. In fact it rarely violated C02 standards because diesels are typically about 16% lower C02 than gasoline engines in the first place.

No.....they made a $25 billion example out of VW...simply for two reasons.
1. They were the first ones caught
2. They were proud of being the largest conglomerate auto manufacturer in the world....and this knocked them down from that.

The even sadder part that was buried in the news over the next five years....is that Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Renault, BMW/mini and Volvo just off the top of my head....also got caught cheating in the same testing program at WV tech....two of which also had installed cheating software.....most paid a few billion $ at most. Several of them litigated long enough that the window for prosecution expired and they did not even get their hands slapped

So when people bitch about the Vw scandal I typically say bullshit and who cares. If any of them cheated they should get the same $25 billion foot in the ass or no one should.

In short....VW caved to public opinion. They should have fought it hard. You can do a lot of litigation for $25 billion.
Vw was made a political example of by the climate lobby and the US car mfg lobbies combined. VW's TDI's were beating everyone's as.....better styling, good performance and overall better cost even WITH the DEF fluid issue. A lot of this was protectionist action by and for American car manufacturers.

I remember the thread on VW diesel scandal....all of the whiners screaming...."but they lied and DAMAGED our atmosphere" :roll: :roll: :roll: .....when in fact the math was done by many scientists and showed that the ~500,000 vehicles here in the US, over a 2 year period ....put out about the same particulate and C02 ....combined....as about three days emissions from a coal fired power plant. Damage my ass!

Ray
Thank you for that Ray!

The biggest deception in the whole Dieselgate scandal was not VW's at all. It was your own government in conjunction with the green lobby and the domestic auto industry lobby. The loosers were the North American buying public and the environment when they instead bought 12 MPG overpriced SUVs and pickup trucks.

But to quote our beloved Mark Tucker "You can't fix stupid!"

Sat Feb 22, 2025 2:56 pm

zerotofifty wrote:

These mandates a HUGE financial burden . Some years ago the state mandated a huge number of trucks be replaced, good serviceable trucks were to be replaced.

*cash for clunkers has entered the chat*

I'm still bitter that program artificially took out good cars 5-10 years earlier than their expected service life

Sat Feb 22, 2025 2:59 pm

oprn wrote: raygreenwood wrote: The sad part about VW...."deceiving"....as you note....is that they did not have to do that to for their cars to be competitive at all. As for mileage and emissions, their TDI diesels at that point in time were already beating BMW and others (by a slim margin) in mileage, HP/Tq and emissions.....just using DEF injection like everyone else was using...which 90% of the "cheating" vehicles were already plumbed and wired for.

They did it....cheated.....to say their vehicles did not need DEF injection... to reach sales supremacy of 1 million vehicles into the US market alone. The hook....the lure....was that by not using the DEF/urea fluid injection that everyone else was using, they saved a waste product and an every 2 year service at ~$250 to $300. So it made their car look greener and cheaper to operate.

The stupid fact....if you looked at the test data published by West VA tech where the testing was done....is that yes....the car violated emissions standards by some 65-75%...as the media crudely and incompletely statex.....but only about 10% of the time. It only reached nasty levels of particulate emissions at maximum acceleration and at full throttle cruise. In fact it rarely violated C02 standards because diesels are typically about 16% lower C02 than gasoline engines in the first place.

No.....they made a $25 billion example out of VW...simply for two reasons.
1. They were the first ones caught
2. They were proud of being the largest conglomerate auto manufacturer in the world....and this knocked them down from that.

The even sadder part that was buried in the news over the next five years....is that Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Renault, BMW/mini and Volvo just off the top of my head....also got caught cheating in the same testing program at WV tech....two of which also had installed cheating software.....most paid a few billion $ at most. Several of them litigated long enough that the window for prosecution expired and they did not even get their hands slapped

So when people bitch about the Vw scandal I typically say bullshit and who cares. If any of them cheated they should get the same $25 billion foot in the ass or no one should.

In short....VW caved to public opinion. They should have fought it hard. You can do a lot of litigation for $25 billion.
Vw was made a political example of by the climate lobby and the US car mfg lobbies combined. VW's TDI's were beating everyone's as.....better styling, good performance and overall better cost even WITH the DEF fluid issue. A lot of this was protectionist action by and for American car manufacturers.

I remember the thread on VW diesel scandal....all of the whiners screaming...."but they lied and DAMAGED our atmosphere" :roll: :roll: :roll: .....when in fact the math was done by many scientists and showed that the ~500,000 vehicles here in the US, over a 2 year period ....put out about the same particulate and C02 ....combined....as about three days emissions from a coal fired power plant. Damage my ass!

Ray
Thank you for that Ray!

The biggest deception in the whole Dieselgate scandal was not VW's at all. It was your own government in conjunction with the green lobby and the domestic auto industry lobby. The loosers were the North American buying public and the environment when they instead bought 12 MPG overpriced SUVs and pickup trucks.

But to quote our beloved Mark Tucker "You can't fix stupid!"

The interesting thing.....is that IF...VW had not cheated and got caught (or I do not care if they cheated...but if they had not been caught)......the low sulfur diesel movement which was skyrocketing at that time both in the US and Europe (and already had been in Asia).......this movement would have pretty much made the EV market.....a non-starter (as they say).

At that point in time, direct injection, low sulfur diesel cars had double the fuel mileage....useful performance (which was improving as we moved into highly enginered 6, 7 and 8 speed gearboxes).....about 15% aggregate lower C02 than any gasoline engine....about equal NOX....and acceptable particulates when using DEF fluid.

AS we moved forward a decade (that was back in 2015)....since that time, gasoline engines have improved fuel mileage across the board by about 16%. in teh city and about 13% on the highway. Some of this is due to engine management and direct injection with turbocharging being the norm but is in no small respect due to CVT's (which I dislike) and 6, 7 and 8 speed automatics and manuals.

Likewise, diesels have improved mileage and emissions over the past 10 years as well.

But my point...is that that back in 2015 when this scandal happened...diesel in Europe was KING...because the C02 emissions were better, the particulate emissions were cleaned up "enough" and the NOX emissions were stable...the performance of teh high torque diesels with gearboxes to exploit that were acceptable........and the fuel usage was 40% better on average.

Think about that. The use of 40% less fuel which by now would be about 55% less fuel....lower C02..........why would anyone need an EV?

But...the scandal literally was the poison pill that killed the entire passenger car diesel industry. The PR in the face of the climate change movement literally killed sales almost globally.

If diesel had taken off....lets say by 2035....if 80% of passenger car vehicles became diesel in the united states..... would be we would need 40%+...LESS....oil across the board. That right there would have been huge.

NOTE: diesel with its lower C02...was favored in Europe because they are worried about greenhouse gases and C02 being the main one. The NOX issue...is more of a smog issue. They are less concerned about that.

Ray

Sat Feb 22, 2025 5:18 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Xevin wrote: What am I missing here?

Quote: This exemption allows a fleet owner to remain in compliance by purchasing a new internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle of the same configuration instead of a ZEV or NZEV.

basically they are forcing people to buy the "next generation" of truck...even if it is ICE to 'stay compliant'

Gotcha skills, that’s what I didn’t comprehend. I knew there had to be something in there. I was thinking when a company needed to replace a car in the fleet. They needed to replace with ZEV equivalent or apply for exemption on an ICE car that’s not available in an NEV model. Not replacing current fleet of perfectly good ICE cars with new ICE cars.

Sat Feb 22, 2025 6:02 pm

KTPhil wrote: CARB has outlived its usefulness. Now it is run by zealots without regard to the cost to the public.

At one time (late '60s/early '70s) it was critical to establishing tougher standards for California... and a success. We all (Cali and non-Cali) breathe cleaner air as a result.

But that problem, and solution, are history... but since no Gub'm'nt bureaucracy ever dies, it now looks for things to do. Time to kill it.

Mandating no gas stoves and going all-electric, while we are reminded daily to stay off-peak and conserve electricity, regular power brownouts... there isn't enough power to do it, regardless of expense.

I agree its run by zealots!

As for outlived its usefulness....well....for what it originally did....its still useful.

I think it needs to be audited and strip all of the overreach out and all of the programs that were not in the original wheelhouse.
It really did clean up aotomobile emissions in California and a few other places where its framework was adopted.

However, when it came to idustrial air emissions....from what I know...and I know quite a lot because I have had to deal with industrial plant emissions and permitting for quite some time.....CARB was never actually equipped or knowledgable enough about processes they were circumventing to actually be effective and do no harm. To be fair.....many state emissions compliance entities are also quite "over reachy"....and do as much harm as they do good.

Yes, it varies by region and weather and state...and industry in question. But there needs to be a national framwork built only on PROVEABLE science....and tuned at the state/regional level.

Ray

Wed Feb 26, 2025 7:00 pm

For the electric car to actually be green in a propulsion sense, you need green electricity, and a large part of wind or solar power is battery banks so in as to supply power to charge a car when the wind aint blowing and it is nighttime, or cloudy. or snowing,

Well Moss Landing battery bank has ignited again, it started the month prior, was extinguished, and how has erupted again. 100s of people had to be evacuated do to the Hydrofluoric acid smoke. See linked hazmat video of Moss Landing fire.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w36wovazwmA

And they want people to install "power walls" in their garage, next to the family electric car, a mini Moss Landing Battery Bank in every home!!!! :roll:

Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:54 pm

zerotofifty wrote: For the electric car to actually be green in a propulsion sense, you need green electricity, and a large part of wind or solar power is battery banks so in as to supply power to charge a car when the wind aint blowing and it is nighttime, or cloudy. or snowing,

They can just make "Green Days Off". If there is no wind or solar to power your car you can take the day off.

Thu Feb 27, 2025 4:22 pm

zerotofifty wrote: For the electric car to actually be green in a propulsion sense, you need green electricity, [….]
Not really, the efficiency of an electric car is so much higher than a vehicle gas engine that they can use less power even running on the US average coal fired power plant (though running on average US coal they would have higher particulate missions). The gas engine in a car struggles to achieve 20% overall efficiency, gas station to wheel. The EV can manage 80% plug to wheel. Yes, there are losses getting power to the plug, but they are also losses turning crude oil to gas and getting it to thousands of stations.

I would add, my power is less than 5% hydrocarbon based and I’m not paying for any type of “green power.”
75% hydro
9% nuclear
8% wind
3% solar

I guess I should also add I don’t currently have an EV. :twisted: