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Notched
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Pacific Northwest
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 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:38 pm Post subject: Type 3 Throttle Body |
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I'm starting... Just thought I'd get this topic going... So y'all can follow...
So, I've been wanting to design, and build, a Type 3 throttle body for a long time. After using CB's 48mm throttle bodies on my Notch, running EFI on my sandrail, and building a EFI system around Redline/Weber TBs, I realized that they are not optimal. As typical with using something designed for a Type 1, and using it on a Type 3, you run into height problems. I am hoping to fix this, and a few other issues.
So, I'm using SolidWorks to design them. And, hopefully build a prototype set on a manual mill and lathe. I've never produced anything this complex before. So you all will be able to follow along...
My progress so far...
IDF flange — I am going to base the throttle bodies on an IDF flange, because it seems to be the intake manifold of choice with a Type 3.
This is the base plate that I have worked out so far... SolidWorks is a really cool program, in the fact that all of these pieces are designed separately as "parts" so that I can update them individually, and assemble them in an "assembly"
My idea is that they are modular. So, you can have an IDF flange or and IDA flange, because I want to sell them. Also, you can switch out the "barrels" to change the size. I'm starting with 50mm. These are the throats — not sure of the technical term? They will be octagonal, because it will be easier for me to machine on manual equipment. But, I may machine these on a lathe, so they might end up round.
Here, I'm just messing around with some ideas for velocity stacks...
Now, they're starting to look like something... Throttle shaft in place...
My hope is to incorporate these injector holders into the design — They are unique in the fact that no fuel rails are needed, note the -06 fitting (And, the fact that I know the guy who sells them)
So, this is where I'm at. I would love any input that folks have! I have plenty of ideas, and experience with ITBs (Independent Throttle Bodies) but as any wise "engineer", I value input.
The goal, is to run my own design TBs (And other parts that I've machined) using MegaSquirt and running everything from my Android phone.
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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supersuk
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Joined: December 20, 2010
Posts: 958
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
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| Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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I really like the idea of shorter throttle bodies. However, instead of making a throttle body for each cylinder, have you thought about making a single throttle body for each bank of cylinders so that changing spark plugs will be easier? The shorty IDF manifolds really suck when you have to change the spark plugs. A single 57mm would be equivalent to dual 40mm throats. This would probably be easier to manufacture too...
You could use something like the ICT or Solex manifolds. They seem to be thick enough to port out a little? I've never done that so i'm not positive. The injectors bosses that you have pictured can be welded into the manifolds to have a direct shot to the back of the intake valves. Another benefit would be the capability of using all the tin around the intake manifold opening.
I'm not knocking your design, just putting more ideas into your head.
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Notched
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting ideas. I defininitely understand how difficult that it is to get to the plugs with short Type 3 IDF manifolds. Unfortunately, I can't really change those at this point. I'm using existing cast manifolds.
Although I don't have specific information to back up my idea, it is pretty well proven that dual throat carbs work, and they work well. So, I am going to keep that idea.
This is one of the hot set ups for a WRX Subaru.
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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Aaron M265
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Joined: March 31, 2008
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23201
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 Throttle Body |
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| Notched wrote: |
I'm starting... Just thought I'd get this topic going... So y'all can follow...
So, I've been wanting to design, and build, a Type 3 throttle body for a long time.
My hope is to incorporate these injector holders into the design — They are unique in the fact that no fuel rails are needed, note the -06 fitting (And, the fact that I know the guy who sells them)
So, this is where I'm at. I would love any input that folks have! I have plenty of ideas, and experience with ITBs (Independent Throttle Bodies) but as any wise "engineer", I value input.
The goal, is to run my own design TBs (And other parts that I've machined) using MegaSquirt and running everything from my Android phone. |
Are you making these TB's out of steel? Just asking how you were planning to join the steel injector body to the aluminum TB is all. Was it to be a press fit(interfence fit), or were they going to be drilled and tapped? Or do they make the steel part in aluminum? Just something to think about.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Notched
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
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No. Aluminum. Those injector holders are available in steel or aluminum bottoms. My friend sells them.
They are weld in. I am going to try and figure out a way to machine the bottoms differently so that I can bolt them together. But, because space is an issue, I may weld them into the manifold.
Here's how they are intended to be welded:
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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supersuk
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Joined: December 20, 2010
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Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: |
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That subaru manifold system looks like it'll allow the wrx motors to fit under the lid of the type 3's!
I found these while surfing the web.
http://www.vwspeedshop.com/product.php?productid=16759&cat=385&page=1
It is true that dual throat carbs work well because they put equal amount of fuel into each cylinder, unlike a single throat carb. I've had that problem on my own motor using the ICT carbs. However, if running fuel injection you don't have to worry about that problem since each cylinder will have its own injector if using a 4 injector setup. The throttle body will always allow whatever air is needed for each cylinder.
Now onto comments with your design. Are you planning on having everything machined from one billet block?
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23201
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Notched wrote: |
No. Aluminum. Those injector holders are available in steel or aluminum bottoms. My friend sells them.
They are weld in. I am going to try and figure out a way to machine the bottoms differently so that I can bolt them together. But, because space is an issue, I may weld them into the manifold.
Here's how they are intended to be welded:
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Ok, that'll work. I didn't know unless I asked.  You'll probably need to put them into the manifolds though.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Notched
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Britcher wrote: |
Good work.
As you might know, I had some IDF pattern throttle bodies shortened to fit under the lid of my 2028cc Type 3 engine.
Your on the right track with this and I think there would be a few people keen on them. |
Yes, I plan on doing the same with my CB throttle bodies as well. I hope that I can pull this off, because I think there are quite a few of us who want to go fuel injection, but there aren't many options for a Type 3.
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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ac509
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Joined: September 20, 2012
Posts: 160
Location: moved
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 Throttle Body |
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| Notched wrote: |
I'm starting... Just thought I'd get this topic going... So y'all can follow...
So, I'm using SolidWorks to design them...
This is the base plate that I have worked out so far... SolidWorks is a really cool program, in the fact that all of these pieces are designed separately as "parts" so that I can update them individually, and assemble them in an "assembly"
The goal, is to run my own design TBs (And other parts that I've machined) using MegaSquirt and running everything from my Android phone. |
I love where you are going with this. I want to run megasquirt and TB's. I also use solidworks, drive a Type 3 and flash a new rom on my android phone about every other day. It is like we are twins! hahaha. I have used swx for about 13 years now - not bragging!!! Just sharing. 
I was just in my garage looking at some veedub parts and was thinking about how I need to start drawing some of these parts. I think it'd be pretty cool to have the whole engine modeled.
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Dumber people are doing harder things everyday.
No one questions a 73' Volkswagen?
I have a '73 Volkswagen and it is nowhere near 73' long! |
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Notched
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| supersuk wrote: |
| That subaru manifold system looks like it'll allow the wrx motors to fit under the lid of the type 3's! |
| supersuk wrote: |
| Now onto comments with your design. Are you planning on having everything machined from one billet block? |
These will be modular. So, no. Multiple parts. The bottom plate is separate. The throats (I need a better term) are separate. And the top plate will be separate. So will the velocity stacks. The idea is that you can set these up for many motors. The bottom plates will be available in IDF and IDA pattern. The throats will be available in several sizes. I'm starting with IDF and 52mm, because that's what I want to try.
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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Notched
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 Throttle Body |
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| ac509 wrote: |
| Notched wrote: |
I'm starting... Just thought I'd get this topic going... So y'all can follow...
So, I'm using SolidWorks to design them...
This is the base plate that I have worked out so far... SolidWorks is a really cool program, in the fact that all of these pieces are designed separately as "parts" so that I can update them individually, and assemble them in an "assembly"
The goal, is to run my own design TBs (And other parts that I've machined) using MegaSquirt and running everything from my Android phone. |
I love where you are going with this. I want to run megasquirt and TB's. I also use solidworks, drive a Type 3 and flash a new rom on my android phone about every other day. It is like we are twins! hahaha. I have used swx for about 13 years now - not bragging!!! Just sharing.
I was just in my garage looking at some veedub parts and was thinking about how I need to start drawing some of these parts. I think it'd be pretty cool to have the whole engine modeled. |
I've used SolidWorks for 3 months...  Last time I've done anything like this it was with a pencil and a scale. And some ellipse templates... Maybe a T-square and a few triangles... Circa 1985
SolidWorks is awesome. I can't believe how cool it is. I'm taking a manual machining class next term, so I need do design a project. This is what I came up with.
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23201
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 Throttle Body |
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| Notched wrote: |
I've used SolidWorks for 3 months... Last time I've done anything like this it was with a pencil and a scale. And some ellipse templates... Maybe a T-square and a few triangles... Circa 1985
SolidWorks is awesome. I can't believe how cool it is. I'm taking a manual machining class next term, so I need do design a project. This is what I came up with. |
Now, IF you could "import" it into a Master Cam program or something similar, then you would have a program for CNC machining. Some programs will let you import them, and some don't though. Doing stuff on Master Cam is cool, in that you get to see the tool paths and any screw ups (on screen), before you even load the machine.  Plus, once you have the program, you can make as many as you want.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Notched
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yup. Word on the street is that SolidWorks will have it's own deal soon... You'll be able to convert to a readable file and send it to a HAAS mill. I think Mastercam Inc. is going to be nervous, or perhaps, they are now.
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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ac509
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Most of these CAM programs (SurfCAM, MasterCAM, etc) will open SolidWorks files directly. Sure makes it nice for the programmer.
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Dumber people are doing harder things everyday.
No one questions a 73' Volkswagen?
I have a '73 Volkswagen and it is nowhere near 73' long! |
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Soul
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Posts: 168
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Your concept sounds a lot like Extrudabody ITB's which are modular.
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supersuk
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Bobnotch
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Notched
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Joined: January 19, 2003
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Location: Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Very similar. In fact, when I first had the idea, I searched around and found their site!
What is funny, is that a friend of mine told me my idea wouldn't work. Then I showed him their TBs. He didn't say anything after that.
I was kinda bummed that someone had already done this, but I'm pressing on... There aren't many new ideas, but, there is always room for improvement! And, mine will have optional turbo hats!
I've done a TON of research. There are other companies out there doing the same thing. These are the sexiest that I've found:
_________________
Phillip Bradfield
Current stock: '57 Panel Bus, '63 Rat Notch, '64 Baja, '66 Variant, '67 Convertible Ghia, '68 Squareback, '69 Squareback, '69 Fastback
Southern Oregon VW Club -- http://www.sovw.org
Oregon VW Forum -- http://www.oregonvw.org |
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Soul
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Posts: 168
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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I like what you're doing and there is always room for improvements on designs. The turbo hat option that would work under the lid of a Type 3 would be killer.
Flanges that can be indexed to suit DCOE or IDF Weber inlet manifolds would also cut down on the amount of modular pieces you'd have to offer.
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