Syncro Off-Road Abilities vs. Competition

[Jon_slider]

> if I was locked up.

oh, I see I misunderstood you

thats great to hear that an unlocked syncro coupled to a VC, can go where a Disco cannot.

Whether or not the Disco has a VC, matters to my way of thinking, but does not matter to the OP, he asked to compare vehicles, not features..

your comment about engine weight makes sense too, thanks

> i will back out of this discussion then.

I will stop trying to compare apples to apples also

I think a banana with the skin on has more traction offroad than an orange without the peel

I like to eat oranges more than bananas, when its hot offroad.

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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[IdahoDoug]

I think what's REALLY amazing is how well the Syncro Vanagon can do offroad. I know what it takes from the manufacturing side to take vehicle A which has been optimized for a particular task, and convert it to a far more challenging task - vehicle B. And you cannot just do this casually like a guy could in his garage. The vehicle still has to pass exhaustive durability, safety, handling, crashing standards in every country it will be sold. In the case of the Syncro, that's literally dozens of different countries. And then the vehicle B has to be competitive enough against the competitors in that new segment to cause people to write a check. And the whole time you have a team of bean counters objecting to every additional feature, and the $6.78 it added to the manufacturing cost. Usually, these projects end up in abominations like the Family Truckster GT.

I found the myriad of novel engineering solutions in the Syncro absolutely fascinating. The water separating intake system that pulls air from a sheltered snorkel 5 feet off the ground. The molded polyethylene fuel tank that is more puncture resistant than steel. Full length underbody skid plates. The way the engineers modified the transmission with the G gear housing and its idler gears. The snorkel on the transmission breather. The triple sealed front wheel bearings. While I worked on it, there were several times I walked into the kitchen greasy from head to toe and excitedly pulled my wife out to see these details - both little and big. It is a marvel of design, a masterful extension of a great vehicle into one with far extended capabilities that was executed with a mastery of engineering I personally have never seen before.

Yes, I dig 'em.

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[randywebb]

the point is to give people an idea of what a Syncro can do - people who have no experience with one but DO have experience with other vehicles
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[hellenic vanagon]

[hellenic vanagon]

And ask them to question there, why is so important for a car to have an absolutely symmetrical transmission geometry, as SUBARU, correctly insists, and as VW never referred to, in order not be in position to apologize for all the rest model's, which they haven't!

ΜΙRRORED 4x4!

Link


Although, much later, they accepted:

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The Syncro Heresy

[hellenic vanagon]

FRONT

REAR

ABSOLUTELY SYMMETRICAL!

Because it is not important only what a SYNCRO T3 can do, (offroad/onroad), but how it does it, also!
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The Syncro Heresy

[hellenic vanagon]

PINZGAUER, SYNCRO T3!

[/b]

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The Syncro Heresy

[climberjohn]

Doug,

Passionately written and eloquently stated.

So it begs the question . . . why don't you have one? =^)

-CJ
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'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often.

[Jon_slider]

[IdahoDoug]

John,

The story of my Syncro is one of the most remarkable of the myriad automotive chapters I have been privileged to experience. For a decade, my professional automotive career meant I daily drove prototypes. I literally did not own a car for 6 of those years, and for the years I did, I was the only HQ employee at GM who parked a "foreign" car in the executive ramp. A new 1986 Jetta GLI Wolfsburg Edition - and literally hundreds of people I did not know came up to me randomly in meetings and hallways and earnestly give me props about breaking through the old rule.

So when I had a chance to get a Syncro, and realized it would be the most perfect vehicle on the planet for a guy with an adventurous wife and two young kids, living in the center of the most beautiful places to see, I jumped. I literally tore the thing apart bit by bit, constantly getting golden advice from the masters here on Samba. My goal was to use it to solo (one vehicle) access the seriously remote areas here in N. Idaho, British Columbia, and Montana that we currently do with either of the LandCruisers using a tent. The huge bonus was being able to sleep inside of steel walls in Grizzly country.

As I drove it and got to know the chassis, I became really attached to it and began to question my intention to bang it around out in the woods. It was a really dry body in great shape. And I realized I would have to modify it considerably to handle the beating without it looking like a trail rat with dented rockers, missing bumper corners, and gouged side panels. So one day when it was essentially fully brought up to its original level of durability and painted, I knew the next step was ripping out the interior and installing a 4 person sleeping system and removable cooking and storage pod setup. And I blinked. And I looked at the LandCruisers parked next to it and changed my mind.

So just before I took the fork in the road into modifying a beautiful, stock Syncro now ready for years of motoring, I sold it to someone who wanted one to adventure in it just as VW intended it. Instead, I built a custom rooftop camping system for the LandCruiser.

Now the LandCruiser can sleep and support 4 adults in the most difficult terrain imaginable. Definitely a downgrade in interior roominess, but an upgrade in durability and capability in many ways. We have done a couple trips in it already and there are places we've been I wouldn't have ventured in the Syncro. But do I miss my Syncro? Yes - like crazy. I am over 50 and when that yellow Syncro disappeared around the corner with its new owners, I cried. Nothing I can write will convey more than about how deeply I invested myself in a vehicle that also gave back to me in spades. I treasure the hours of GoPro footage and photographs I have of the trips we took in her. My iPhone screenshot is still my yellow Syncro in an impossibly green cornfield with my son crouching amongst the stalks in the foreground.

Ah...... Anyhow, these are magnificent creatures and the Syncro is a remarkable variation of the Vanagon. And it is a singularly immense engineering accomplishment that required even VW to tap the considerable talents of a world class specialist engineering firm to accomplish - Steyr Puch. Nobody will ever, ever build a vehicle like the Syncro again. It is too expensive to make, and that it ever happened once was a remarkable alignment of the forces that occasionally produce milestone vehicles.

So yeah, I dig 'em. And I don't have one because I belatedly realized my use for it was going to destroy it. And sometimes I look at your Syncros here on Samba and start thinking "hmmm" again...

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[hellenic vanagon]

"GELANDE" PLUS LOCKERS:

Link


NATURALLY

NATURALLY 2

NATURALLY 3

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The Syncro Heresy

[hellenic vanagon]

Its 25 year mission
To explore strange new worlds
To seek out new life and new civilizations
To boldly go where no T3/T25 has gone before!

Hi! from TOM HANKS

"SYNCRO STARSHIP ENTERPRISE"

Link

(If you hurry up, look after 5:55)
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The Syncro Heresy

[hellenic vanagon]

[hellenic vanagon]

1.60m2 secret spoiler ahead the front axle!

Yes, because of its distance of the front axle forms lever!

Its influence is maximized above 150km/h.
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The Syncro Heresy

[climberjohn]

</slight-threadjack-alert>

Doug,

I too appreciate your continued participation on this forum. The fact you are posting means are still passionate about these rigs. I followed your long build/restore thread, then was puzzled why you sold her. Thanks for the backstory. (I hope my comment did not sound flippant, not my intent at all.) Please keep up your expert and eloquent posts.

-CJ

<slight-threadjack-alert>
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'86 Westy, 2.5 Subaru power
Know your limits. Exceed them often.

[hellenic vanagon]

According to Michel Thevissen, GRAND RAID means:

"(To be)...in deserts like the Sahara and other desolated areas, with very little
or no supply or fuel, water and food, (with) an action radius of 2000 km and supplies for 14 days..."

SYNCRO GRAND RAID
(Please check how much narrow the tires are, making it a lot more difficult)

Link


"SYNCRO WAY OF LIFE"

VERY TECHNICAL. SEE HOW SMOOTHLY SYNCRO PASSES, WITH BOTH LOCKERS, OVER A ROUGH TERRAIN

Link

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The Syncro Heresy

[hellenic vanagon]

There is not only slow motion offroading!

For the fast offroading a LANDY votes SYNCRO hands down!

He says:

"just a short one on high speed driving on dirt roads in general. There are two main issues we have to look at:

If you take for example the VW T3 Syncro Bus, that must be the best performing vehicle on dirt roads ever! Hi speeds no problem, until you hit an area with soft sand or fine dust a few centimetres deep. Then all hell brakes loose and one has both hands full to tame the beast, but it will emerge on all four wheels for two reasons:

1. Independant suspension all round

2. Torque sensing centre diff (Viscous coupling as in some RR's) which automatically transfers traction to the axle that benefits most from this.

Now if we look at the Disco1, Disco2 and Defenders, all those vehicles are at a disadvantage up front for the following reasons:

1. Live (beam) axles front and rear - This can result in trampling on very corrugated surfaces and if that is around a corner the "fun" really starts

2. Open centre diff, which puts power normally to the axle with the least traction
That is why it is highly advisable to lock the centre diff on untarred roads so that the power delivery is at least directed to both axles."

It is from S.A's LAND ROVER site!

http://www.landyonline.co.za/landyforum/viewtopic.php?f=5&p=12946#p12917

AVANTI MAESTRO!

Link


"POPULAR MECHANICS", considering the top 10 of the most desirable cars in U.S.A. today, includes, (CAMPER), SYNCRO, (T3)!"

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The Syncro Heresy

[IdahoDoug]

While I appreciate your enthusiastic Vanagon Syncro posts, carefully consider the audience here on Samba. Most are well informed and logical here.

Here is a quote from above "the VW T3 Syncro Bus, that must be the best performing vehicle on dirt roads ever". I have no idea who you are quoting as an authority, but I could easily defeat a Syncro in a dirt road race with literally a hundred different models. For your reading, all four of the vehicles in my signature would be far faster, better handling, and competent on a dirt road, rough dirt track, or serious obstacle-strewn offroad challenge.

The Quattro I own for instance. It has a FAR more effective 4WD system (25% to each tire all the time) than the Syncro system (very little % to front tires until slippage occurs), it will go over 130mph, and it has a driver-controlled locking rear differential. All stock. You'd not stand a chance! And to further humiliate you, I'd get way better fuel economy as well.

LandRover comparisons on high speed dirt road are not a real impressive one at all. Kinda like saying your favorite vehicle can beat a Trabant in a drag race. Most 2WD vehicles could outrun an older Land Rover on a dirt road - assuming you are talking about from the years the Vanagon was built. However, a modern Land Rover would drop a Vanagon Syncro easily in a dirt road race. It would be gone in a 340hp cloud of dust, its driver humming along to Vivaldi on the 600 watt stereo and trying to decide to sip his latte or call his favorite restaurant for reservations.....

My LandCruisers could also beat a Syncro in any speed oriented rough road competition, even under the "disadvantage" of their solid axles (cough). In high range selection, they utilize a unique VC-like component in the center differential that keeps as close to 50/50 torque split at all times - even on curves and corners. This feature does not need time to "react" like the Syncro VC - it is always on, always doing its job. Its huge disc brakes will probably out stop the Syncro. And I will bash through rough spots that will have a Syncro slowing to pick a line while the LandCruiser's huge suspension travel and massive 275/16 tires let me keep my foot to the floor. I'll need to, because it weighs 5350 lbs with just me in it (heh).

Finally, my Subaru. It is a masterful chassis and my evaluation of it indicates it would be second only to the mighty Quattro, though I would break out in hives at the odd feeling of flogging a CVT vehicle - a technology you have to experience to believe. Easily one of the most unsatisfying drivetrains to feel, but obviously a remarkable achievement.

So, love the Syncro, but don't put it on a Grecian pedestal, or column!!

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Zeitgeist 13]

Not to mention G-wagens and Unimogs. I'm hard pressed to think of any other criteria where a T3 would be seriously compared to a truck or SUV. In a Venn diagram, the T3 occupies a whole lot of empty space, 'cause it's not really comparable to much of anything when you consider the totality of it's design and intended use.
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Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[hellenic vanagon]