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78 Flywheel Bolts Source
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78westfalia
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Hello,
Does anyone know where to source the flywheel bolts for a 78 Westy? Part # N0143351. Bus Depot lists the part, but they’re currently on back Order with eta 3-5 weeks. Even then they’re not guaranteed to come in. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

VWHeritage shows 6. Might find them at Pelican Parts or Auto Atlanta. FYI I have read that the 914-4 bolts are different length.
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

FYI for searching purposes...

a little google-fu came up with a spec: they are flange bolts, M12 x 1.5 thread pitch x 22mm length.

These seem to be surprisingly hard to find as most M12 flange bolts available through the usual suspects are 1.75 thread pitch.

I checked Bel-Metric, Fastenal, and McMaster-Carr. No M12 x 1.5 flange bolts.

EDIT: this place Bolt Depot (no experience with them) has them in M12 x 1.5 in either 20mm or 25mm lengths, in yellow zinc-plated steel, grade 8.8:

pasting the link in made the post disappear, so search boltdepot.com and you will find it.

I do not know if that is strong enough for this application or if they should be 10.9.

Could you use a regular (non-flange) bolt with a washer? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't know but I'm not sure I'd want to be the first guy to try it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

They are NLA from VW. Unless someone has them in stock it looks like a loosing chase. The 914-4 bolt is a different number because it is supposedly longer and bottoms when using a bus flywheel and crank.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Check GoWesty, VanCafe, and Vanagain. The watercooled and aircooled Vanagan uses very close to the same bolt as a Bay but they have a different head and don't use the soft lock plate under the head. The torque is 81 ft*lbs according to the GoWesty site.

https://www.gowesty.com/product/-/24083/flywheel-flexplate-bolt-kit?v=

Never actually used these on a Type 4, so give GoWesty a call to see what they say.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

The Type4 store.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Hoody wrote:
The Type4 store.


^^^This

While they are not flanged...they are correct length and strength. I will have to check one of my original VW bolts ...but they are NOT class 8.8. They are minimum class 10.9...and more probably class 12.9.

Or if you want something closer to stock....ARP has 8740 Chromoly 12mm x 1.5mm x 25mm flange bolts. ARP does not make crap. I do not see the class rating but they are rated at 170,000 psi.

Class 12.9 is 177,000-ish
Class 10,9 is 151,000-ish
SAE grade 8 is 150,000-ish

Just grind off the unwanted 3mm. No big deal.

https://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-detail-b.php?RecordID=2963

Not bad for $21.72

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

What about the Schnorr finishing on the underside of the flange? Or is that assumed in any flange bolt?

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
What about the Schnorr finishing on the underside of the flange? Or is that assumed in any flange bolt?

Robbie


The ribbing is not the same as a "Schnoor". Its not a bellville washer.
Although you could probably just use a ribbed Bellville washer with these.

They are .043" thick when compressed.

From long ago discussions ...IIRC....I "think" Jake found not having the serrations was not that big of a deal of they are loctited. I will have to look for that thread. I think it was on the STF. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

I have a couple sets, PM for details
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

How about buying the too-long bolts, put a die or a hard nut on them, cut to length, chase thread. Install to torque and add blue Loctite elixir to the clean and dry thread per spec.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
How about buying the too-long bolts, put a die or a hard nut on them, cut to length, chase thread. Install to torque and add blue Loctite elixir to the clean and dry thread per spec.


Yep.

I can cut those in about a minute with a dremel and fiberglass cut off wheel.

I will be looking at one of my original bolts later today with regard to the robs underneath the bolt head.
I may be wrong.....but I remember these ribs are not raised. I thought they were recessed to "extrude" the material from the softer large washer disk into the cavities in their surface.
Ray
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78westfalia
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Manfred58sc wrote:
I have a couple sets, PM for details
PM sent
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Here is a little more information on these bolts. I have added them to my....."when you have 5 minutes to waste and want to Google something you have been looking for"....list.

It may help others find some when they have time to look.

I have plenty of used bolts in my collection of parts....but really...correctly....you should replace these bolts at about the same interval as piston rod bolts. They are under a lot of stress and highly torqued.

So......these DIN 6921 bolts.....meaning fully threads serrated flange head. DIN 6921 can come either serrated or not serrated.
Strength wise....they are actually metric class 100.

In this class....they are case hardened and have tensile strength of 150,800 to 174,000 psi.....so they are slightly above class 10.9 and just few thousand psi short of class 12.9.

Looking at an original bolt.....and I remember talking about this in another thread somewhere......this is a pretty bad ass design locking wise. Flange head so no load bearibg washer necessary.

The flywheel generally being cast iron or cast steel.....is brittle and creates small chips when teeth bite into its surface. Through flexing and vibration those chips turn to dust and just locking these serrated bolts to the flywheel means they will sooner or layer work loose with a black powdery residue under them. So.....you get the big five hole lock washer. Teeth bite into that....and it can never turn to loosen from heat cycling and vibration because there are 4 other bolts keeping from turning.

So if you can get serrated flange bolts......it would be the best.

However that being said....if you can get bolts of usable tensile strength with or without flanges that have no serrations.....I think that if you have a good automatic center punch you can put a ring of indentations on the mating face of the bolt ...and those will have sharp raised edges.....and that should do the same thing.

But.....you should get flanged bolts either way. Without a flange.....a bolt really needs a washer to spread load.

Ill post some pics later of a bolt that was center punched and some details of the ribs on a stock one. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

But.....you should get flanged bolts either way. Without a flange.....a bolt really needs a washer to spread load.

Ill post some pics later of a bolt that was center punched and some details of the ribs on a stock one. Ray


I have never heard of Vanagons having a problem with the flywheel bolts that VW used with them, despite:

-More horsepower and torque
-No or minimal serrations
-Less bearing area
-Much longer typical life to engine and clutch assembly

I have noticed that the bolts will eat into the flywheel a bit as the flywheel is removed and reinstalled many times.

I do recognize your concerns here, but VW must have decided to make a change in the bolts and bearing plate from some reason.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

flywheel bolts sometimes crystalize in general. Anyone who has been burned by that or snapped one torquing it will always replace them if they have any miles on them. Unfortunately those only once in a lifetime things add up.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

I do recognize your concerns here, but VW must have decided to make a change in the bolts and bearing plate from some reason.


As the '80s progressed, this kind of decision most likely came down to "how can we save a few bucks and still make it 'good enough'"

Like Chuck Garabedian said:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

But.....you should get flanged bolts either way. Without a flange.....a bolt really needs a washer to spread load.

Ill post some pics later of a bolt that was center punched and some details of the ribs on a stock one. Ray


I have never heard of Vanagons having a problem with the flywheel bolts that VW used with them, despite:

-More horsepower and torque
-No or minimal serrations
-Less bearing area
-Much longer typical life to engine and clutch assembly

I have noticed that the bolts will eat into the flywheel a bit as the flywheel is removed and reinstalled many times.

I do recognize your concerns here, but VW must have decided to make a change in the bolts and bearing plate from some reason.


Are vanagon fywheels the same material?

I agree. I have NEVER seen a broken flywheel bolt on type 4.......specifically......a FACTORY INSTALLED bolt. But I have seen several tjat have broken when being used a 2nd or 3rd time and are being retorqued.

As for the serrated teeth being hard on the flywheel.....I also agree. It takes a lot of cycles of off and on. But i would also say they defibayyly do not bite into the flywheel that well.
Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

Are vanagon fywheels the same material?


GoWesty shows the same part number fitting from '76-91. Whether the originals where the same material I don't know.
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 78 Flywheel Bolts Source Reply with quote

Bus 2 litre ..... N0143351 M12 x 1.5 x 22

914-4 & 912E N014336B M12 x 1.5 x 25

I listed some 914-4 ones in classifieds. I do not know if they will work on a bus because they are 3mm longer than the VW part.
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