Almost lost a friend

HILLAHOLIC · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: Almost lost a friend

We went for a test and tune in Hillsville, PA on the 25th. After about an hour my friend PlumberBill had a very bad roll. He got knocked out and has a few stitches but is doing ok. As you can see it was a very bad hit. He back flipped and landed on the driver side windshield frame then barrel rolled 3 times after the initial hit. He is going to rebuild it but he is looking for suggestions on bracing it so this doesn’t happen again. It’s a four seater and he plans to put x bracing behind the front and back seats. He knows he needs more bracing but is looking for suggestions on A bracing so the windshield won’t fail. I remember a guy on here had a program that showed the stress points on tubing with bracing in different locations. Would appreciate any help you have to offer because it was scary seeing this happen.

Thanks, Brad

The Hill

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Where he ended up after the roll

Dave helping Bill into Jeff's buggy

Bill getting strapped in to Jeff’s buggy and taken to the helicopter.

Getting the high lift ready

After cutting the roof off the steering wheel

Cuog · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject:

I never did like the style of that frame, and those photos reaffirm that. Glad your friend is ok.

What might help is some triangle bracing at the windshield, it just has bars going forward normally, if you had one going straight down, or leaning back a bit, I think it would really strengthen that point. I'd also raise the roof and run straight bars instead of those bent ones, Xing them if you want for more strength.

baja5 · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject:

That's a little scary, glad your friend is doing OK, he got lucky.From the looks of that rail there were some serious design flaws, and it looks to have Subi power as well.You need to do some serious research and find a design that will work for that car as well as be safe.Take a look at some race cars and see what they are using for upper cage support.And make sure the person welding knows what they are doing.
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fusername · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject:

holy cow, I can't belive it failed so completely! that is really scary. Are there any before pics of that frame? I am curious as to what let such a relatively light car destroy itself when it backflipped. I know it can gain a lot of speed goin over like that, but still, a rail is meant to withstand that. is that a berrien frame? It looks like thier body kit is why I ask.
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HILLAHOLIC · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject:

Chassis:

Berrian 4105+3 pick-up style rear 4 seater with 105 wheel base.

Here is a ling to all the details
http://www.woodsbuggy.com/nov08

fusername · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject:

good lord thats my frame...

was the roll over that bad, or do I need to start adding to my frame. I don't have the pickup kit, nor the 3 inch extra, but I wanted both! I would be VERY interested in any more details, photos, etc of the damage and accident. my rail is a woods buggy, i can see an accident like this being in my future. was the frame rusty, had it been hit before, etc.
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carrera1984 · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject:

wow, thank god everyone is alright. Looks like there even is extra 90 degree gussets on top plus the stock diamond they get. Also there is and extra 45 bar down by where side view mirrors would go... Even though it seems to be all bent, how was it welded?
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runslikeapenguin · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject:

ohh man, i saved these pictures for later use, so i can assure people im seriously looking out for saftey and I'm not just being a dick when i tell them to change things.

its really hard to narrow down exactly what to change to create a better roof structure on a rail like that when so many things are so wrong. especially when most of the problems are designed into the chassis. primarily the A pillar or the lack there of. force gains a mechanical advantage that's multiplied by the length of the lever from the fulcrum point. AKA the windshield frame joint where the gusset was.

make sure your friend scraps this frame if hes going to rebuild the rail. have him keep it on the side of the house as a reminder.
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jakeddy · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:51 am Post subject:

Thnks God he's alright.

Just wow! You never know do you?

Cuog · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:01 am Post subject:

yellow73kubel · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:16 am Post subject:

Hmm.. My two cents on the frame. Looks like everything around the windshield and roof should be scrapped for larger thick-wall DOM tubing (whether you rebuild this lower frame or buy a new one). At least 1.5-1.75in diameter, and .120-.250 wall thickness. Don't screw around when picking that stuff, as there is almost no bracing there. Make sure the welds are good, although that doesn't look to be the problem.

It looks like the best place for an extra brace would be going from the top corners of the windshield frame to where the back hoop meets the lower part. The computer program you are talking about is known as "finite element analysis", there are plenty of free programs to do that kind of thing. Just make a 3D model of the frame, and you can apply pressure at any spot you want to see what the effect is.

It is good to hear that the rollover didn't cause any permanent injury, I hope your friend recovers quickly.

Dale M. · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:56 am Post subject:

The problem with this design is the top bars connecting front hoop to rear hoop...

The angle the upper bars connect with the front hoop makes it almost flat and provides no "engineered" in strength (triangle) it relies in the lateral strength of the tubing... And the bend in the upper bars just sets up for it to bend more because it has lost its straight line compression (laternal) strength... (red arrows) ..... A straight brace from front hoop to rear hoop would have made it less likely to fail..(yellow line)... You will also notice front hoop compressed sideways towards passenger side, this indicates "X" bracing of top bars connecting front and rear hoop is not sufficient.

If you rebuild it, use nothing less than 1.5 or 1-5/8 inch .120 DOM tubing and eliminate bend in top bars.........

I would take this issue right back to manufacturer of frame......

Dale
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Cuog · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:52 am Post subject:

runslikeapenguin · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:17 am Post subject:

Rockwood · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:44 am Post subject:

Wow. Your friend was really lucky. With that being said:

First, I think it is sad that there is more tubing protecting the engine than the occupants.

Second, no helmets? Go buy him a full face helmet and never let him drive without it.

Third, scrap the thin rollbar padding and get some SFI-rated directional padding. It looks better and protects much better. Link:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autof...toview=sku

Fourth, that's probably a 0.095" wall 1.5" ERW frame, right? Has the car been weighed with 4 occupants and a full tank of fuel to make sure this is enough? I would say that car needs DOM in the same thickness, thicker wall (like 0.120") ERW or a better designed roll structure.

I would most certainly scrap that frame. Anything that's been through that needs to be sent to the recyclers. Frames cost, at the most, a couple thousand for a beam car, and the amount of money he's going to spend rebuilding that won't be that far off.

Forward hoops like on the Chenowth 4LWD:

Are MUCH stronger. I never liked windshield frames (especially that small) like that because they just allow the frame to bend backwards towards the occupants. The bent roof bars certainly don't help either. Adding straight roof bars would just impede on headroom and make it almost as dangerous since it won't take a rollover to knock your head against it. Notice the way those roof bars that were bent are now straight? The tube was not forced to get longer as the windshield frame collapsed, it just bent back to straight.

The bend in the rearmost upright bars is also an example of poor engineering. Those need to be straight.

The best way to protect a driver is to force the tube to either stretch or compress lengthwise in a collision. Remember, you can relatively easily bend tubing in a hand operated bender, imagine what thousands of lbs of force would do it the same tubing. Straight tubes are almost always stronger than bent ones.

If he MUST rebuild that chassis, I would scrap the whole rollover hoop design for something like what I posted, with a large windshield frame to allow straight tubes back to the main hoop. In addition, some bars like those on rally cars and speed world challenge cars:

That go from the corner of the windshield to the bottom of the frame would help a lot.
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JonF · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:09 am Post subject:

ouch. how did it happen? was that from sliding on its top or getting flipped over on its top?
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caromin · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject:

You friend is lucky, glad to hear he's ok. He did a nice job building that rail too. I'm curious did it flip over backwards? If so, imagine what would happen if he rolled it at speed. I consider the Berrin chassis, a play chassis, it needs a good bit of bracing help if you're going to put it in that kind of situation. I never cared for their windshield type hoop that makes up the front of the driver's cage and the fact that they use .095 mild tubing in their chassis. If I was putting it back together I'd run two hoops on ether side of the pass. compartment going from front to back with good crossbracing in between as well as gusseting type bars at the critical points. Definately dom or .120 steel. With that kind of HP and the type of terrain he's running on it needs a cage structure more similar to an offroad race vehicle.
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Skidmark · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject:

I just had one of those scary moments, but didn't go over. A friend in a Jeep got a tow rope on my front bumper before I slid backwards down a hill. Really scary stuff! I am glad to hear your friend is recovering....
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seabeebuggy · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject:

I would build the new top with CM tubing. I would use at least .120 wall
I never liked the hoop design it is weak and that is why many people have moved to the chenworth style. . Everything has its limits and that was a dune buggy frame. That hill does not look small either. If i was going to hill climb I would double tube it and extend the top to the rear more. Mid point piller and maybe something between the driver and passenger. Hoops just fold back too easy.
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aquamanx · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject:

WOW! That looks bad.
I'm gonna build a rail for my wife she was set on a Berrien Cruiser frame but after seeing these pics were having seconds thoughts.
She didn't really like the look of the Bugpack big boy but has now decided to put safety ahead of aesthetics.
Would the Bugpack frame be a better choice?

Thanks
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