My LPG powered beetle.

[Komissar]

Here's my mad experiment, which today made it's first roadtrip ( 30 km ) ...

A LPG (natural gas) powered 1965 Beetle.

Long story short, the decision to convert on LPG came after the recent local gasoline prices reached peak values of the equivalent of 2 US $ / Liter , and LPG gas is 1 US $ per liter, this and the fact that a year ago i've been offered for free the complete LPG setup from a watercooled car.

So, the LPG system consists of the LPG tank, a couple of valves, and most important the LPG "vaporisator" - connected to the stock carb of the initial vehicle by means of a hole right into (and perpendicular) to the venturi tube.

By chance, the donor carb was a Weber ICT clone, thus i was in familiar territory.

Here is the first picture:

The LPG tank mounted behind the rear seat. It has a capacity of 55 Liters, but for safety reasons, they are designed to fill only at 80% of their rated capacity.

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The area where the gas lines mount to the tank is enclosed into a sealed plastic case. The gas lines are inserted in plastic hoses (visible in the picture) designed to be larger into diameter that the gas lines, and those hoses vent the possible gas leaks outside.

My gas lines exit near the rear right wheel ant they are tucked and secured nicely.

Here is my gas fill plug:
(later on i will glue on a red round reflective bicycle reflector, to conceal it)

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Also, you will notice an expansion vase there, from a watercooled car - this brings me to the next big issue of this conversion:

As i said above, the system has a vaporisator , which is a device in charge of making the transition from high pressure liquid gass to low pressure ... gas This process generally generates low temperature and icing. In the original watercooled car, the device was heated by the coolant exiting the hot engine.
In an aircooled car, i had to devise a water circuit passing through a pipe welded to the muffler as this picture shows.

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The water starts at the expansion vase, goes through the pipe near the muffler, rises to the LPG vaporisator and than goes back to the expansion vase. The water goes through this cycle through thermosiphon principle - the same principle that makes water rise through the pipe in a coffe maker. Thus, there are no pumps with complicated moving parts involved.

Here is another picture of the engine, while it was still work in progress :

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I had to relocate the ignition coil to the firewall, since i've placed in it's place the LPG vaporisator, because it's neccesary to have a short gas line between it and the carb.


And a picture with the complete setup:
(the water lines hooked up, and into the expansion vase i've inserted an industrial temperature sender, to monitor the water's temperature )

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The thermosiphon phenomenon "kicks in" in about 10-15 km since starting the car and keeps the LPG system warm.

The original fuel system it's dissabled by means of an electric valve placed before the fuel pump. When no electricity is applied to it it's in the OFF position.

Another interesting thing is the knob for controlling the LPG or the gasoline systems , mounted under the dash:

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note: BENZINA = gasoline

The knob can only be rotated clockwise:

- On the V V position all systems ar off , you cannot run the car neither on lpg neither on gasoline.
- On GAS position, the gas valves open and the car runs on gas
- The R V position is an intermediate position for switching to gasoline use: the gas is still ON, but the gasoline also turns ON, running the car on both gas and gasoline, allowing the carb's float chamber to fill with gasoline - when you hear the engine struggling from over rich mixture it means that the carb is filled with gasoline and it's time to switch to the next position.
- The BENZINA (gasoline) position, where the gasoline control valve is ON and the gas valves are OFF .


I usually keep the knob on "GAS" because i've noticed that the car it's able to cold start on gas alone ( in spring, 10 or above degrees Celsius ).
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1965 Sunroof Beetle
1972 Type 3 Squareback
1978 Skoda 105S

[sandfan43]

So is it lpg or natural???

[Komissar]

LPG ... sorry. I sometimes get the names mixed up.
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1965 Sunroof Beetle
1972 Type 3 Squareback
1978 Skoda 105S

[jfats808]

Congrats on your set up! I fear soon we will all have to.consider it with ridiculous gas prices on the rise.
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2276 IDA's 86C 11-1 DD

[slalombuggy]

I've worked on a few aircooled motors that ran on propane or LPG in Zamboni ice machines. We would see them when the owners had finally abused them to the point they wouldn't run any more. they would come to the shop and drop it off for a rebuild. It got to the point we would just tell them to back up to the steel bin and toss in the long block.

One thing that was very common was the heads to crack SEVERELY. Not just between the valves of the plug hole, but the combustion chamber roof would look like a spider web. They ran VERY hot. Keep an eye on you CHT gauge.

brad

Cool conversion.

[Komissar]

Thanks for the advice .

What engines were those Zamboni ones ?


Regarding the cooling issue I belive I'm a bit on the safe side.
The engine i have in the car it's a 1982-1984 Mexico 1200 engine - AS 41 case, with 1600-style oil pump and oiling galleys . I also have a doghouse shroud and oil cooler installed. Thus, I belive having an 1200 p&c set on puts me a bit on the safe side regarding overworking the engine. Plus the 1200 heads are known for being tough to crack - I am not trying to get performance or over-stress the engine, it's fuel economy what i'm after.
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1965 Sunroof Beetle
1972 Type 3 Squareback
1978 Skoda 105S

[PEPPE]

hey that switch is an old italian one... it is a long time that i do not use them.
i prefer using electronics ones...

i have LPG on many engines. that heating setup works, but itis too much sensitive to load of engine. in cool climate (winter) it will circulate too low water and vaporizer will ice. in hot climate and higway itwill boil out water.

you have to use an interior cooling circulation water pump (froma modern car) and use more tubing.
you will have to control water temperature with a scooter cooling radiator and fan with a 90C switch.

my next LPG engine will be a 2110. about head it is right, they suffer a little more. but the expense will largely compensate the added cost.

[slalombuggy]

[Komissar]

I've returned to share an interesting experience driving the LPG beetle, regarding timing.

Initially i;ve timed the 009 distributor at 30 degrees BTDC @ 3500 RPM .
The engine ran OK-ish ... until two days ago i've decided to bump the timing advance to 35-37 degrees - what a difference ! - the engine feels much better, accelerates better and so on.
Since i am in uncharted waters (there is no given formula regarding LPG timing on a aircooled vw engine) i will continue to experiment more, to see what is the max advance i will get before the dreaded knock will occur.
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1965 Sunroof Beetle
1972 Type 3 Squareback
1978 Skoda 105S

[DarthWeber]

Interesting, do you have cylinder head and oil temp guages?
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[slalombuggy]

One of the techs at work had a CNG conversion on his old Ford truck, he ran a shit load of timing in it. The engine loved it.

What are your CHT readings?

brad

[66brm]

Is it just me or would you be concerned about having a pressure storage vessel in the cabin of the car with me? I know here in Australia that the installation would be illegal due to if the tank vents for any reason its game over for the occupants.
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Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval

[mark tucker]

hmm have you thought about using the lpg going through an old ac evaporator so you could have air conditioning with out a compressor?? now that would be cool !!!hmm another thought how about a O2 sensor& gauge?? we had forklifts that ran on that stuff,it was nasty& sooty.I had to work on it frequently.I didnyt & still dont know squat about how it regulates how much or afr. I realy did not care, just had to get it running.no computers no books, just a babbling redneck sayen fisit got boats to get.oh those were the days.worken on cigarette boats with nakid girls on them, dont get much better than that.

[tdonaldson]

Do you have any bigger pics of the lpg heating system? I've been going propane crazy for the last week or so trying to put the idea together in a way that would work for my car. I hadn't thought about using expansion properties instead of a pump.

I looked at a couple airwarmed regulators, but I think their HP raing is too low, and their outlet pressure is more tuned for a generator than a vehicle.

I've also read that the impco J regulator/converter can be oil heated, but I haven't gotten an email back from them regarding this, or if it is possible in their Cobra series.

I'm considering the idea, but thinking of making it a dedicated propane vehicle, so I would be switching the entire carb off as well. What I was looking at was the Impco CA100, as it seems to be the recommended minimum carb for a vehicile application.

Def keep us updated, I'm watching this thread pretty closely. The only thing stopping me is that my vehicle has a full 1600, and I don't have an overestimated cooling system for my heads.

[Komissar]

[tdonaldson]

I've been looking at a few things. The external oil cooler is definitely one. Another is a heat dispersing ceramic coating on the fins of the cylinders and heads. If I mount the oil cooler externally I might alter the doghouse to block where the oil cooler was to get more air on the heads. We'll see, wife works tonight so I might look at the design of a few different style tins. Thanks for the pulley idea.

[1075VWDUDE]

Hey Man, how's the conversion going? I read all the posts you had on this subject and was wondering where it went. Did you get it working? Im interested in doin the same thing to my Bug.

Thanks

Larry

[Komissar]

Helo,
The conversion worked flawlessly ... since i've done it i've covered 20-30.000 km's with it with all kind of driving : city, highway, mountain driving.
Even heavy winter driving. When starting in winter i've used to swith the knob to "both gas+gasoline" and it would start right away. After that, i drove for 5-10 minutes allowing the engine to warm up and switch to gas only.

However, at the end of this summer I had to take off the LPG since i've temporary moved to Belgium and i see there it's forbidden tho have LPG in most underground parking spaces (and that means almost ALL parking spaces ) . But the LPG system worked fine every time.
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1965 Sunroof Beetle
1972 Type 3 Squareback
1978 Skoda 105S

[JoeD]

I used one of these:
http://www.propanecarbs.com/impco/55seriescarburetor.html
There is also a vaporizor I used:
http://www.propanecarbs.com/impco/modeljconverter.html
You feed it with liquid propane and it regulates and sends the gas to the carb.
Didnt need any cylinder heat with a 100lb cylinder.

[nextgen]

A big problem in NY is after 9-11 you are not allowed in tunnels and only on upper levels of bridges when running natural, LPG or Propane.

66BRM I think we are on the same page. LPG and gasoline in a bug!!! Yipes!!! The car is not exactly a crash worthy machine, I see a big hole in the pavement and a cinder behind the wheel.

Not that I have not thought about it and excellent workmanship.
My bug is not my daily driver so I can afford some gasoline. Battery storage is coming on fast, soon enough super hybrids and full electric will be the way to go. I am not a big fan of U.S cars but my friend has a Volt an it is amazing. The are going for smaller gas engines.
Next is the very small turbo diesel hybrids, perfect for constant charging speeds we know the mileage diesel get. Here in NY and NJ after Superstorm Sandy, Diesel cars just pulled up to the Pumps no lines at the truck stops. The last thing in a embargo is no Diesel, not even in the 60's/
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