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1621
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2174
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 Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ftp2leta wrote: |
So have fun with other conversions. Me i found the right one.
Finally, i can drive a vanagon without thinking about the mechanical side of it... i can just drive and enjoy our beautiful continent wile you guys are still thinking about the right solution!
Ben |
A man dies and goes to heaven. Saint Peter meets him at the gates and takes him on a tour. They enter a long hall with doors lining either side of it.
Saint Peter opens the first door they come to they see the Hindus reading the Rigveda. The next door they open they see the Buddists reading the The Diamond Sutra. In the next room contains people of various Islamic faiths reading the Qur'an, and the next has Catholics reading the Bible.
Then they pass a door that Peter doesn't open. This rouses the man's curiosity and he asks, "Who is in that room, sir?"
"Well," Peter replies, "that is the room with the Mormons. Don't go in there; they think they are the only ones in heaven."
Note - No Mormons were injured or offended in the telling of this joke.
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'85 Westy
Last edited by 1621 on Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:38 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Finally, i can drive a vanagon without thinking about he mechanical side of it... i can just drive and enjoy our beautiful continent wile you guys are still thinking about the right solution! |
Uh...I drive wherever I want, any distance, any time, and pretty fast.
I didn't know that was such a big deal.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
also available at VanCafe.com!
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine. |
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Beetsport
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Syncro / Vanagon Engine Conversions - Options & Thou |
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| levi wrote: |
It's very deceptive to give a # without the corresponding rpm. Don't know about the 1.8t but a wrx has huge torque #'s up at 3-4000, but real-world scenario is not very appetizing for a westy: almost no torque where it matters @ 1000-1500 rpm. That's the rpm range where I leave a traffic/stop light, maybe 100 times a day. Even a wbx 1.9 has around 100 lb/ft at 1000 rpm or so, and how does the 1.8t match up there? |
1.8T
1900 rpm = 97.5 tq
2511 rpm = 133 tq
3500 rpm = 189.8 tq
4000 rpm = 178.00
this is Wheel power ......
2.1 boxer
3200 rpm = 117 tq
this is crankshaft power.....
1.9 boxer
2600 rpm = 105 tq
this is crankshaft power....
2.2 Subi EJ22
4000 rpm = 140 tq
this is crankshaft power...
2.5 Subi
4000 rpm = 165 tq
this is crankshaft power...
2.0 Zetec
114.37 (can't tell rpm from chart given, 3700?? ) max tq
this is Wheel power.
Could not get 1000 rpm dyno run.
To each their own.....  
_________________
'90 Syncro Westy 1.8T with 180hp 174 torque, CA safe!
http://H2oVanagon.com
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=217285 |
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Williamtaylor33
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Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 1545
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: |
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The turbo zetec is the most bang for the buck.
You could get a turbo zetec installed for under $8000 easy. Or stick with the stock zetec power for under $5000.
_________________
89 Bostig powered syncro westy |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:28 am Post subject: |
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In my opinionated opinion, after driving a 2.2 Subaru in my syncro Westy at high altitude for a couple of years, go with a Turbo powered engine.
If you are going to go diesel, use a TDi, and get ready to regear the tran$axle too..
now that diesel costs more than gasoline, my vote is for the 1.8T, but a Bostig Turbo costs less. |
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Outback Kampers
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 2340
Location: Oregon Outback
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: |
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This is and will always be a point of discussion--thing is, there is no 'perfect conversion' for each individual. Personally, there's nothing that compares to a simple mechanical TDI for my purposes. It gets high 20's mpg in a fully-loaded Syncro Westy with 30" tires, pulls trailers loaded with 2 motorcycles with ease, climbs all of the hills in the eastern USA without shifting into third, and makes gobs of torque at all of the appropriate rpm's. Having next to nothing as far as electronics makes me much more likely to explore places I use to avoid in the WBX days, and my level of anxiety and worry is now nil.
Now....if in some alternate universe I really liked the smell of gasoline (it gives me migraines), I'd have a 20V five-cylinder Audi in there. The Overland 2.6 five is a nice inexpensive option too, but the mileage sux--same as stock but at least you get 50% more power!
BTW, Jon, if you check the current diesel prices you'll find the gap has narrowed again, in some places diesel is the same price as gas. It's 2.25 here, gas is at 1.90. In most of the countries I plan to drive next year, diesel is far cheaper--for instance, Ecuador is 1.03, gas 1.59/1.99. 
_________________
Karl Mullendore
1990 Syncro 16" sunroof Reimo highroof conversion
1990 Westy Multivan 112i automatic
1992 LT31 Karmann Distance Wide 'La Tortuga'
2014 Touareg X TDI |
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regis101
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2005
Posts: 2078
Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: |
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1.8T
Volkswagen's ubiquitous 1.8T engine has seen many improvements over the years, and lots of use in several vehicles, sometimes mounted longitudinally, sometimes transverse.
Code AEB, ATW, and AUG, 150 hp (110 kW), 1.8 l, 1998-2000 Passat, longitudinally mounted
Code AWM, 170 hp (130 kW), 1.8 l, 2001-2005 Passat, longitudinally mounted
Code AGU, APH, AWD, AWW, AWU, AWV, and BKF, 150 hp (110 kW), 1.8 l, 1998-Present Golf, Jetta, New Beetle, transversely mounted
Code AWP and BNU, 180 hp (130 kW), 1.8 l, 2001-Present Jetta, New Beetle, transversely mounted
[edit]
Found this info. Would sourcing an engine from a longitudinally car be an easier swap than the transverse ?
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dredward
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2007
Posts: 1081
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Syncro / Vanagon Engine Conversions - Options & Thou |
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| Beetsport wrote: |
| ftp2leta wrote: |
-Passat/Jetta???? I have driven only one with a 1.8L engine, ok, no more. A lot of vibration. Not much more power than stock engine.
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Huh??? Vibration?? I've had the I4 laying over at 50 degree in my Synfalia. Yes, this one vibrates. 1.8T, no.
We just put a van's rear wheels on a dyno and came up with 190 torque... That's over double stock..
May want to drive one |
This motor runs smooth as butter. This is the way to go. No other swap offers the same ease of install, dependability, power, and legality, as this swap. If you don't live in Cali it's even easier given no need to see a smog ref. No other swap even compares. It even stays all vw. Also has the modern obd2 port to made diagnosis easier. Do it you won't regret it. |
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Beetsport
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| regis101 wrote: |
1.8T
Volkswagen's ubiquitous 1.8T engine has seen many improvements over the years, and lots of use in several vehicles, sometimes mounted longitudinally, sometimes transverse.
Code AEB, ATW, and AUG, 150 hp (110 kW), 1.8 l, 1998-2000 Passat, longitudinally mounted
Code AWM, 170 hp (130 kW), 1.8 l, 2001-2005 Passat, longitudinally mounted
Code AGU, APH, AWD, AWW, AWU, AWV, and BKF, 150 hp (110 kW), 1.8 l, 1998-Present Golf, Jetta, New Beetle, transversely mounted
Code AWP and BNU, 180 hp (130 kW), 1.8 l, 2001-Present Jetta, New Beetle, transversely mounted
[edit]
Found this info. Would sourcing an engine from a longitudinally car be an easier swap than the transverse ? |
We found that the AWP engine configuration is the best. Strangly enough the enigne is mounted transversly but all hoses etc. just seem to want to go right into place for the Vanagon with min. mods. Plus these are newer engines and the AWP computer programming is good for stock 180hp and 174ft.lb. torque. (stock..)
_________________
'90 Syncro Westy 1.8T with 180hp 174 torque, CA safe!
http://H2oVanagon.com
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=217285 |
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regis101
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2005
Posts: 2078
Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Well I spent some time watching your videos and read the story. Seems like you can't keep your foot outta that thing. 
How well is the turbo set up for lag. From the dyno charts is seems to come up to power right away making me think that the lag is nil. I'm not a turbo student...yet
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Beetsport
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| regis101 wrote: |
Well I spent some time watching your videos and read the story. Seems like you can't keep your foot outta that thing.
How well is the turbo set up for lag. From the dyno charts is seems to come up to power right away making me think that the lag is nil. I'm not a turbo student...yet |
There is (as with any turbo equipt engine) some lag. VW uses a smaller turbo and 3 intake valves per cylinder to help out with this. On todays 2.0T there virtually is no lag. There is not a place anywhere that I can not go with my Synfalia. It does take some getting used to driving a turbo charged engine and more so on a heavy Vanagon.
Yes, foot is always into it..
_________________
'90 Syncro Westy 1.8T with 180hp 174 torque, CA safe!
http://H2oVanagon.com
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=217285 |
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dredward
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2007
Posts: 1081
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Syncro / Vanagon Engine Conversions - Options & Thou |
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| 1621 wrote: |
| levi wrote: |
| Beetsport wrote: |
| ftp2leta wrote: |
-Passat/Jetta???? I have driven only one with a 1.8L engine, ok, no more. A lot of vibration. Not much more power than stock engine.
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We just put a van's rear wheels on a dyno and came up with 190 torque... That's over double stock..
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It's very deceptive to give a # without the corresponding rpm. Don't know about the 1.8t but a wrx has huge torque #'s up at 3-4000, but real-world scenario is not very appetizing for a westy: almost no torque where it matters @ 1000-1500 rpm. That's the rpm range where I leave a traffic/stop light, maybe 100 times a day. Even a wbx 1.9 has around 100 lb/ft at 1000 rpm or so, and how does the 1.8t match up there? |
I can't speak for Stephan or the dyno run, but I will tell you the 1.8T (APR chipped) is FAR better from a stop than the original 1.9. First gear is rather short, but I like it that way. Second gear is a bit longer, but I generally don't need to linger there for long. Third gear is a little slice of heaven! And fourth (0.77) makes for nice cruising RPMs and the occasional burst of speed for passing.
FWIW, I have no significant vibration from the 1.8T. In fact, it's considerably quieter and smoother than the WBX it replaced. When warmed up and I come to a light, I sometimes need to listen to see if I'm still idling. |
Agreed  |
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Gorge Runner
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Joined: February 24, 2008
Posts: 199
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| regis101 wrote: |
Well I spent some time watching your videos and read the story. Seems like you can't keep your foot outta that thing.
How well is the turbo set up for lag. From the dyno charts is seems to come up to power right away making me think that the lag is nil. I'm not a turbo student...yet |
| levi wrote: |
| It's very deceptive to give a # without the corresponding rpm. Don't know about the 1.8t but a wrx has huge torque #'s up at 3-4000, but real-world scenario is not very appetizing for a westy: almost no torque where it matters @ 1000-1500 rpm. That's the rpm range where I leave a traffic/stop light, maybe 100 times a day. Even a wbx 1.9 has around 100 lb/ft at 1000 rpm or so, and how does the 1.8t match up there? |
Let's be clear about this: you do not have to drive a turbo charged Vanagon with your foot constantly nailed to the floor. Yes, its more fun to do so, but not required. Turbo lag in normal driving conditions is really an after thought especially since were taking about Vanagons here. Since so many performance comparisons are being made to the WBX, keep in mind the WBX is essentially all lag. To be fair here, I really don't think comparing any of the turbo conversions to the WBX serves any useful purpose. The WRX (I can't speak about the 1.8t) does just fine even when you're not mashing the pedal.
And let's not forget the Vanagon is not a sports car either. Its a pretty heavy vehicle. But having said that, I can assure you, the WRX has no problem in city traffic and I'm sure the 1.8t does just fine too. Low end power/torque comparisons have limited utility for going to the grocery store-- more helpful for the the sychros out in the boonies rock crawling at low rpm or vehicles with taller tires/wheels. If you really need more low-end grunt, well then you can always take the WRX, 1.8t or the ZETEC into a tuning shop. Can't do that with a WBX.
Levi is right, the turbo charged motors are completely different animal at high rpm's. Quickly accelerating to freeway speeds, passing going up long, steep hill climbs--these are the areas the turbo motors really will make the biggest impression upon the Vanagon driver. But you can have this same experience with a 2.5 Subaru too--just ask Ben.
For me (and I suspect others will agree), there is just no useful reason to compare the performance of any turbo charged motors (or even the 2.5 Subaru) with the WBX.
Marc
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91 Carat
EJ205 WRX |
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regis101
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2005
Posts: 2078
Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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The speed limit is 65 in most states. The rpm range for most of us
Bus/Vanagon/Eurovan pilots is 2k-4k. This is where I want the power. All of the power.
There can be no denial or unclearness about the characteristics of the WRX, ABA, WBX, Type 4, V6 or any other mill that wants to be transplanted or even left as stock.
I'd hate to spend time any money to have poo poo results because the chosen engine does not perform where it needs to live. I don't care that the max hp or tq is at 6k. Or that it pulls from 3-7. I want life to be at 2k-5k.
I'm just razzin' ol Beetsport about his new toy. This , , should've been a clue.
I haven't read a mention about total weight. Very important. VW went through design measures to achieve good balance. Throwing an old chevy V8 back there is counter productive. The quest for powerplants will not rest as long as the technology keeps improving.
White bread has been sliced a long time ago. Not much else out there can make a surprise. Ya makes yer choices and ya pays yer money. No big
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240Gordy
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Joined: May 15, 2008
Posts: 2354
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| regis101 wrote: |
The speed limit is 65 in most states. The rpm range for most of us Bus/Vanagon/Eurovan pilots is 2k-4k. This is where I want the power. All of the power.
I'd hate to spend time any money to have poo poo results because the chosen engine does not perform where it needs to live. I don't care that the max hp or tq is at 6k. Or that it pulls from 3-7. I want life to be at 2k-5k. |
this is a completely arbitrary desire dictated by the experience of driving a WBX. Those RPM ranges are what work for the WBX, so that is what you feel is the RPM range any engine should work at optimum performance. Another engine may make adequate or better torque from 3000-6000 RPM, nothing wrong with that either, you just need to adjust your thinking and operation of that engine, or hook it to an automatic that does the thinking for you.
Ocassionally I drive a 45' bus with a 12L engine mated to a 10 speed automated manual tranny. It revs from 1000-1500rpm if the computer runs it. It is way more economical than if any driver controls it, and better for the engine. different strokes ne?
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Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Low end power/torque comparisons have limited utility for going to the grocery store-- |
Couldn't (respectfully, of course!) disagree more. Low end is where it counts for stop and go city driving. The high rpm hp a lot of engines make is something you mostly get to feel only out on the highway or in spirited open-road driving. It's great to have and all, and it will really make a difference on the long grades, or beating into a headwind on the interstate, but the bottom line IS the bottom line: torque is what gets you going, having solid torque off-idle and in the low rpms makes for a more driveable truck. It is a truck, after all, not a sports sedan.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
also available at VanCafe.com!
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine. |
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spaeth
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Joined: January 05, 2005
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have one of Overland's 2.6 liter inline 5 cylinders in my Syncro DoKa. It is a torque machine. It really makes driving the truck very nice, both on road and off. I really like the drivability of this motor. It is 140 hp and 140 ft/lbs of torque. I have a dyno chart laying around here somewhere. If I dig it up I will post at what rpm, but the torque comes in nice and early. Off road it is amazing how much easier it is to drive than the wbx.
Craig |
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regis101
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2005
Posts: 2078
Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| regis101 wrote: |
| t I want life to be at 2k-5k. |
We're talking about a 4500 lbs Vanagon, loaded with people and gear and...the keg
My Bus at 3200 lbs has 67 hp and 101 tq. It rolls along for what it is. 120 hp and 120 tq would solve most issues because of the way it's geared.
I am of the opinion that the Vanagon could use 150 hp and 150 hp in a useable driving rpm range. Again, because of the way it's geared.
If I was to totally regear a trans for 200 hp and 200 ft/lbs then it's a different game. The engine would be doing all the work. Cruise rpm would be 2k at 65. With the stock gearing less engine power can be had.
My thoughts are not cemented. I don't have any experience with transplants, in the VW world. Of all the VW swaps I've seen only a few have wished they had gone a different route. Kudos to them for speaking up. I refuse to take yes for an answer. I always follow with a Why
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regis101
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Joined: July 28, 2005
Posts: 2078
Location: Livermore, Ca
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regis101
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2005
Posts: 2078
Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Forget all this and hold out for Subaru's diesel Boxer. Ooo la la
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