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jkojouharov
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Joined: April 05, 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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 Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: IRS stub axle end play? |
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I'm rebuilding my '70 IRS pan to go under a '57 oval body.
After putting together the rear end with new bearings, and a disc brake kit - I noticed that the axle moves about 2mm sideways even after I have tightened the axle nut (not to 250lb, but just as hard as I can by hand with a 2 foot handle)...
I'm pretty sure that the spacers/bearings are all touching, and pressed in together. I know the inner bearing is a 'floating' one, where the inner race can move in/out in relation to the rollers and the outer race. However, the outer bearing is fixed and the races cannot move laterally in relation to one another. So the only explanation I have is that the outer bearing is moving a little inside the bearing cap (which is also tightened).
Is that kind of play normal? Also, does it make sense that only the outer bearing is responsible for keeping the axle from moving sideways (as the inner bearing can float, and all the spacers are not fixed relative to the hub?
On the picture, the distance marked with the arrows changes by about 2mm if I hit the axle from either side with a rubber hammer. The behavior of the other axle is identical (about 2mm play).
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ach60 
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2001
Posts: 4137
Location: Santa Maria
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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You should have two spacer outboard of the bearings, and a crush sleeve between the bearings.
When you torque to 213ft-lb(from memory) the torque loads everthing and I don't think you should have any play then.
wolfywho Photo found in Gallery
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Al |
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Different Drummer
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Joined: April 14, 2009
Posts: 89
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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I am presently doing my IRS. Have everything out as I type this.
I noticed in your post that you mention "rollers" and a "floating inner race" on the INNER bearing. I believe that the inner bearing is the Ball type and the roller bearing is in the outer position. Are you sure they are installed correctly? |
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jkojouharov
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Different Drummer wrote: |
I am presently doing my IRS. Have everything out as I type this.
I noticed in your post that you mention "rollers" and a "floating inner race" on the INNER bearing. I believe that the inner bearing is the Ball type and the roller bearing is in the outer position. Are you sure they are installed correctly? |
I definitely have all the spacers in place. However, I am just putting things back together they way they were when I pulled it all apart. And the way I pulled it apart was that the ROLLER bearing was on the inside (CV axle side).
It is quite possible that the PO had things in the wrong way, and I'm just following that. Can someone confirm deny which side (outside/inside) the roller bearing is supposed to be, and which side the fixed ball bearing is on?
cheers,
jordan |
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jkojouharov
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Joined: April 05, 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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I think I have worked it out. The PO had the bearings the wrong way around.
as per: http://www.1800vw.bizhosting.com/0.suspension_rear.irs.htm , the ball bearing is on the inside (CV joint side), and the roller bearing is on the outside (axle nut side).
I guess one more pull apart is in order... Thanks for mentioning the order of the bearings Different Drummer - I would have NEVER thought about checking that. They are the same diameter in/out, and the same thickness (it seems).... |
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Different Drummer
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Joined: April 14, 2009
Posts: 89
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Roller bearing on the outside, ball bearing on the inside.
Now, better check one more thing. ( Hope you read this before you reassemble)
Inner bearing spacer should be the one with the chamfer on the inside of the spacer. AND the chamfer faces towards the transmission.
Outer bearing spacer has an external chamfer and this chamfer also faces toward the transmission. Obviously the long sleeve goes in the middle between the bearings.
Look at them carefully and you will see the difference in the chamfered ends.
Good luck. |
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jkojouharov
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Different Drummer wrote: |
Roller bearing on the outside, ball bearing on the inside.
Now, better check one more thing. ( Hope you read this before you reassemble)
Inner bearing spacer should be the one with the chamfer on the inside of the spacer. AND the chamfer faces towards the transmission.
Outer bearing spacer has an external chamfer and this chamfer also faces toward the transmission. Obviously the long sleeve goes in the middle between the bearings.
Look at them carefully and you will see the difference in the chamfered ends.
Good luck. |
Yes, checked the spacers as well, those look right, exactly as per your description. |
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70_clementine_vert
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 122
Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| ach60 wrote: |
You should have two spacer outboard of the bearings, and a crush sleeve between the bearings.
When you torque to 213ft-lb(from memory) the torque loads everthing and I don't think you should have any play then.
wolfywho Photo found in Gallery |
I have had similar play in my rear axle and suspect the spacers were installed incorrectly.
My question, the Napa guy could not find the inner seal on his computer. They are great down there but this is an old vw and he didn't know what I was talking about. I got the outer seal kit. Will the outer seal work on the ingside. My outer seal looks good so I am wondering if they are the same. In the picture you posted they look the same. GREAT picture by the way.
Thanks
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Blue69Baja
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Fair Oaks
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Blue69Baja
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Fair Oaks
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| 70_clementine_vert wrote: |
I have had similar play in my rear axle and suspect the spacers were installed incorrectly.
Thanks |
Play like that is usually the wrong bearing on the inside.
Read the solution for this thread. The OP said, " I think I have worked it out. The PO had the bearings the wrong way around."
The ball bearing goes on the inside, the roller on the outside.
The big Circlip holds the inner ball bearing in place inside the arm housing. The spacers, and drum are locked in place and can not move in and out because of that!
If you look how the inner race of the ball bearing and roller are made, the roller inner race is not held in place by the rollers.
The ball bearing's inner race is held in by the balls.
Just think, that is all that holds the stub axle in place, along with the Circlip.
Jim
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72 Super 100% orig...W/ factory air... 56,000mi
Even the spare is original.. |
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70_clementine_vert
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 122
Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Jim. As soon as I got home from work and read your post I knew the seal would work. Got it together last night and took her for a test drive this a.m. and it looks and feels tight and there is no noise so I think it is fixed. The bearings were in correctly with the ball bearing toward the transaxle. I had an extra spacer in there. I can't blame the PO because I have had this car a long time and put that hub together about 6 years ago when I had the body off.
Time will tell but I am getting this car in better shape all the time.
Thanks.
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"In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Roosevelt, T.R. |
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Blue69Baja
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Fair Oaks
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| 70_clementine_vert wrote: |
Jim. As soon as I got home from work and read your post I knew the seal would work. Got it together last night and took her for a test drive this a.m. and it looks and feels tight and there is no noise so I think it is fixed. The bearings were in correctly with the ball bearing toward the transaxle. I had an extra spacer in there. I can't blame the PO because I have had this car a long time and put that hub together about 6 years ago when I had the body off.
Time will tell but I am getting this car in better shape all the time.
Thanks. |
Excellent!
Jim
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69 Baja with a 1914...
72 Super 100% orig...W/ factory air... 56,000mi
Even the spare is original.. |
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its allgood
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2014
Posts: 30
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| This post saved my night. Thanks guys. |
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Danny79
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Joined: May 03, 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: Where might an extra spacer go ? |
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I love the picture, I have all those parts, plus one more, it's like 1/2 and inch wide ---not in the pictures.... what am I missing ?
And thanks, I had the ball bearing - did not realize it was the, now I do. |
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Red5
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017
Posts: 111
Location: Burlington, Vt
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: IRS stub axle end play? |
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I just used this excellent post as a guide to get my rear trailing arms back together (sort of). It seem that I have the opposite problem than the original poster. Instead of too much play, I have too little and the axle won't turn.
I've got the two bearings in, the wide middle spacer, the cir-clip, the inner spacer (with the internal bevel facing the transmission) and have driven the axle through the arm. However, I cannot spin the axle at all by hand. If I loosen up the assembly by lightly tapping the axle back towards the transmission, the axle spins freely and smoothly. Its looks like the inner part if the CV flange is hanging up on the inside of the arm. I cannot imagine how much friction would be involved there once the crown nut gets torqued to 250 ft/lb. There is no way it would be able to turn.
What am I missing? The only thing I can think is that the inner spacer is not on correctly (or I'm using the wrong one).
On a brighter note, I've found that an old steering mount/flange is the perfect size to use as a driver to place the inner seal and axle:
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Dark Earth
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Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: IRS stub axle end play? |
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See if yours is rubbing where the left arrow is pointing. You may have to bevel the inner edge with a die grinder to clear the stub axle.
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My Build: '69 Baja - Dark Earth Version
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Danny79
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: IRS stub axle end play? |
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| This post helped me, can't believe it's been 3 years or more since I brought the 74 super home with a bearing in fragments. Drove it this weekend to a vw show, must have gotten the parts right like in the picture...keep trying, it will work out.... |
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Red5
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017
Posts: 111
Location: Burlington, Vt
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: IRS stub axle end play? |
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The axle does appear to be hanging up on that inner edge of the CV flange. Grinding it off should be easy.
But I am wondering why this is a problem in the first place. This axle came from a different IRS trailing arm. Are there enough minor variations between arms and axles to cause this type of interference? |
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Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: IRS stub axle end play? |
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| Red5 wrote: |
The axle does appear to be hanging up on that inner edge of the CV flange. Grinding it off should be easy.
But I am wondering why this is a problem in the first place. This axle came from a different IRS trailing arm. Are there enough minor variations between arms and axles to cause this type of interference? |
Are they stock VW stub axles ?
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Blue69Baja
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Fair Oaks
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: IRS stub axle end play? |
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Don't go modifying anything...
The inner bevil spacer that is the first thing you put on the stub axle has to be facing the right direction... The bevil has to be towards the trans...
The next thing is that the Ball bearings go to the inside towards the trans and the roller bearings go to the drum side...
Check these first...
The distance from the stub axle flange and the swing arm are not determined by the spacer or anything from the inner bearing out towards the drum.
The inner spacer/bevel in, the inner ball bearing are what controls the inner clearance.
If the roller bearing is on the wrong side, towards the trans then you will have the problem you have described.
Confusing?
I was, years ago when I was told by a major VW parts/repair shop here in Sac that the inner and outer axle bearings are both rollers... OMG! No shitski!
Jim
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69 Baja with a 1914...
72 Super 100% orig...W/ factory air... 56,000mi
Even the spare is original.. |
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