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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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 Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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So in this case.... MORE is not better?
I measure 1.5"
Bentley says 3/8" to 3/4" on 68 to 73 models...
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13633
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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More free play means the clutch will not let the transmission spin freely enough to shift.
Too little free play means the throw out bearing rides on the pressure plate and things get expensive quickly.
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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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It seems impossible to measure... Bentley says that the wing nut should be 1mm from the lever.
I made some marks on the lever and the tranz. Here is with the wing nut OFF.
This one is FUZZY... but you can tell that the nut is threaded down and not only touching the lever, but moved it about 1/8".
And the pedal has 3/4" of free play with my finger. Do I need to get the wing nut off the lever? I never checked it, but I would bet, if I do that, I am going to return to SHIFT ISSUES.
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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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After setting the free play, I searched for my noise...
Something has happened in the right rear brake. On stands, I put the bus in 1st and let the clutch out....
Walked back and bent down by the right rear. That is it, grinding loudly.
Thanks to everyone that gave me some work to do today. I am happy with the result.
NO SHIFTING ISSUES !!!!
Thanks.
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42989
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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make sure you set the freeplay like I showed in my video. You can feel the freeplay by hand. Don't use your feet. The only time I use my feet to check it is once in awhile I'll do a quick test. Been doing this for over 50 years, and have fixed many another mechanics bad installs and adjustments on all kinds of systems - cable and hydraulic.
Your brakes. Did you set a jackstand under the e-brake cable on that side? I almost did that once. what a headache that would have been.
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Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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| SGKent wrote: |
make sure you set the freeplay like I showed in my video. You can feel the freeplay by hand. Don't use your feet. The only time I use my feet to check it is once in awhile I'll do a quick test. Been doing this for over 50 years, and have fixed many another mechanics bad installs and adjustments on all kinds of systems - cable and hydraulic.
Your brakes. Did you set a jackstand under the e-brake cable on that side? I almost did that once. what a headache that would have been. |
I checked the freeplay exactly like your video. 1 finger only !!
How about the clutch lever end tho? As you can see on my pix, there is some pre-load on that. Any issues with NOT being set like Bentley? If so, how do I get the 1mm and still have the same free play?
I will check if I pinched the brake cable. But I don't think so, the stands have been in the same place for 5 years. easy to find, cause I sprayed undercoat and with the stands removed, I have 2 clean spots on the torsion tube.
Plan is to get the wheel and drum off and see what is up.... maybe run thru the gears with the brake off, see if the noise is gone.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42989
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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| malcolm2 wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
make sure you set the freeplay like I showed in my video. You can feel the freeplay by hand. Don't use your feet. The only time I use my feet to check it is once in awhile I'll do a quick test. Been doing this for over 50 years, and have fixed many another mechanics bad installs and adjustments on all kinds of systems - cable and hydraulic.
Your brakes. Did you set a jackstand under the e-brake cable on that side? I almost did that once. what a headache that would have been. |
I checked the freeplay exactly like your video. 1 finger only !!
How about the clutch lever end tho? As you can see on my pix, there is some pre-load on that. Any issues with NOT being set like Bentley? If so, how do I get the 1mm and still have the same free play?
I will check if I pinched the brake cable. But I don't think so, the stands have been in the same place for 5 years. easy to find, cause I sprayed undercoat and with the stands removed, I have 2 clean spots on the torsion tube.
Plan is to get the wheel and drum off and see what is up.... maybe run thru the gears with the brake off, see if the noise is gone. |
Don't hit the brakes with the drum off or oops 
That said, I only care about clutch freeplay at the pedal. As you push the pedal you feel the play before the TO hits the PP. That is the critical distance. As the disk wears the distance will get smaller and the freeplay will go away, needing adjustment again. I check it once every 3,000 to 10,000 miles, and you won't have to adjust it very often. The goal is to be sure there is space between the TO and PP so the TO isn't spinning except when the clutch is pushed. When you press the clutch pedal you are also pushing the flywheel against the engine thrust bearing. It needs to float so oil can get in there. I had to rebuild a Fiat X1/9 motor once for a fellow who had a bad left leg. He would rest his leg on the clutch pedal, which burned out the thrust bearing. At a light you put it in neutral and take you foot off the clutch, don't push the clutch back in until you know the light is getting ready to turn green again. Same in stop and go traffic. No resting/riding on the clutch pedal. And NO RESTING your hand on the gear shift. The shift forks need to float. If the hand is resting on the gear shift it can push the forks against the syncro and damage them. Pissed a lady friend off one night. Her transmission went out on a car she rode. She told me that they weren't covering it under warranty because the shift fork was burned up. I asked her if she rested her hand on the gear shift when she drove. She got pissed off and said that is what the dealer told her. She was looking for someone to tell her that the car was at fault, not her driving skills. 
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"
1971 deluxe (sold)
1977 deluxe |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17994
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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this is where the bently is trash
yes, it worked on all new factory spec'd parts. today, we are working with a carnival of aftermarket shit.
give it the adjustment IT WANTS not what the book says. OE clutch cables were about 4.5 mm diameter, not the 2mm we have today. the thinner cables have way more yield than the originals so every time you push the clutch there is more stretch (think rubber band) than a thicker cable.
At some point, that elasticity will go away, usually when it is about to snap.
The spinning throw out bearing is an old wives tale. Any modern hydraulic clutch setup has enough residual pressure that keeps the TOB in contact with the pressure plate. If this works on shitbag plastic bodied TOB's on modern cars for 200k+ your real deal metal sachs will be just fine
leaving any sort of gap here just add to the freeplay and doesn't move the fingers on the p/p enough to 100% disengage the clutch.
for added punishment, I have about 20 stage 1 and 2 pressure plates out there with a collective 900k miles as of last year. Not 1 throw out bearing issue at all.
Every clutch I adjust has to go into reverse without grinding. There is a fine line on this adjustment. As long as it goes into reverse with no grinding at idle speed just let the freeplay end where it wants.
If it goes into reverse, it will do the rest of the gears just fine
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4155
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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| malcolm2 wrote: |
| How about the clutch lever end tho? As you can see on my pix, there is some pre-load on that. Any issues with NOT being set like Bentley? If so, how do I get the 1mm and still have the same free play? |
I never noticed that sentence in the Bentley before, and it is a totally ridiculous statement. With no contact of the wing nut on the lever, the lever will be way rearward with the throwout bearing held against the front surface of the clutch housing. There would be no way to disengage the clutch fully from that position by stepping on the clutch pedal. That sentence is going into the List of Bentley Errors post ( https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8897843#8897843 ).
I think they meant to say the object of adjusting the wingnut is to get the throwout bearing face to within 1-2 mm of the pressure plate, which would also be the "freeplay" at the end of the lever as it is pulled back and forth by hand.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42989
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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| Quote: |
| The spinning throw out bearing is an old wives tale. Any modern hydraulic clutch setup has enough residual pressure that keeps the TOB in contact with the pressure plate. If this works on shitbag plastic bodied TOB's on modern cars for 200k+ your real deal metal sachs will be just fine |
Don. If the TO is touching the PP then ALL the freeplay is gone and any minute the clutch will start down the path to slipping. I remember a friend's Nissan not that long ago which was on its upteenth dealer factory clutch. My friend brought it to me to see if I could figure out the issue, which I did. The dealer followed the written text exactly, meaning "there was no need for freeplay with a hydraulic system." However the clearance spec was there in the engineering drawings but not the written text part of the manual. Once I adjusted it to the drawings his clutch lasted 100,000+ miles until he sold the car. Happy Easter.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"
1971 deluxe (sold)
1977 deluxe |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17994
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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Steve
Willing to bet I've done more hydraulic clutches than you have. Unless there was an issue with a hose collapsing and holding the clutch disengaged (just like a bad line will keep a brake pad touching the rotor) never have i had any issues.
Go and look how much the pedal has to move in a bus before the arm moves even if the TOB is kissing the PP. That mile long cable stretches a bit before that arm moves
I've outlined the method I use and never had any issues. To each their own. Happy Easter to you too
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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Page 51 of the Engine Clutch section. Reading that and the Free Play at the pedal is quite confusing. They do say that once you have this, check FP, but should really tell us which end takes precedence. You can't have both. So, for now, I am going with my pedal setting as in the video.
SKILLS.... When you say you have "outlined the method you use..." are you talking Pedal Free Play?? Or something else. Would you share? Is it like the video?
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Last edited by malcolm2 on Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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NOISE>>>> Turns out the noise was the rear drum touching the raised sections of the Drum Backplate. The back plate is new, drum measured good, so I re-used the ones that came on the bus.
I added washers between the drum and the hub to pull the drum out a few MM (1.84). Adjusted the pads and will test.
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Last edited by malcolm2 on Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42989
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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the backing plate is at fault. The late plates used a wider thicker spacer in the axle. Lots of discussions on it including milling the back of a new drum a little. I put in the newer spacers to solve it on my 1977.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=643031&highlight=spacer+brake
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"
1971 deluxe (sold)
1977 deluxe |
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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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you guys are rubbing off on me.... i came up with the same idea.
Luckily, I had a bag full of oil drain plug washers from an old Volvo I used to have.
ID is alittle larger than the lug stud and they are 1.84mm thick. No test drive yet, but hand spinning I get no rub or noise. Looked just like these, and they are aluminum. Additional benefit here is that next time I want to remove the drum, it should come right off.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42989
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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i think the difference is that you have reduced the contact area between the drum and hub to just that of the washers. To an engineer that could be a material change.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"
1971 deluxe (sold)
1977 deluxe |
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malcolm2
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2011
Posts: 1280
Location: Mount Juliet, TN
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Still have shifter issues..... |
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Was able to take my longest drive around the neighborhood yesterday.....
I was ready to drive it to dinner with friends.... I mean really ready. But I have yet to install the drivers door. So my wife was against it. AND my Insurance has not come thru.
But the result of the drive was AWESOME.... Shifted into every gear when I wanted it to.
I would say that the knotchy-ness is just about gone. Maybe just a bit of resistance or push-back, but not much.
So happy with it that I am going to keep the BERG shifter in the box for a while longer. I need to get used to how this BUS drives.
And the GRINDING noise is gone after adding the washers between the drum and the hub. I will have to say the test drive was a huge success.
THANKS AGAIN, to all who chimed in. I hope this thread helps others in troubleshooting.
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