Author |
Message |
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Sat May 27, 2023 7:43 am Post subject: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
I finished putting my engine back into my 1968 Autostick Karmann Ghia Vert. Car is all stock with 23,000 miles on it. I'm pretty sure this is the first time the engine has ever been dropped. Putting the engine back in went well considering it's my first time dropping an air cooled VW engine. I've read a lot threads about leaking torque converter seals after replacing them but I was trying to stay confident that it wouldn't happen to me! .... Wrong!
I took my time and did a lot of reading and I started the engine up yesterday for the first time only for about 3 minutes to let the ATF circulate so I could top it off. I let it sit for about 45 minutes and when I came back, I had a small puddle the size of a quarter directly under the bell housing opening. Cleaned it up and 4 hours later no more had dripped out. I'm assuming it's the Torque Converter Seal! My positive attitude failed me!! The puddle does seem to have a slight pinkish look to it but when I put a fresh drop of ATF next to it, the puddle looks more brown but I still think it's ATF. I had emptied as much old ATF from the system as I could. The reservoir was empty, the torque converter was as empty as I could get it using a syphon.
I installed the earlier autostick seal, with the spring on the outside. I greased it to help it slide on, but the seal would slide back before I could have a chance to peen it. I wiped off as much grease as I could and then it stayed in place and I was able to peen it in 4 or 5 places. I used a small screwdriver to peen it.
Any reason to suspect something else is going on?
Can the pressure relief valve in the ATF side of the oil pump be bad causing too much pressure in the line? Is that even something that happens? How would I check it? The metal bushing in the Torque Converter looked fine and with this low mileage I don't suspect excessive wear.
I can't work on it again until next week but the plan is to run the engine again for a while and shift it through the gears for a few times to see how fast it drips. If it's not too bad, I'll take it out for a few short drives and keep an eye on the ATF level.
Summer is short so I'd like to use the car until fall and then drop the engine again if needed?? _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Last edited by Marcdeb on Mon May 29, 2023 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Sat May 27, 2023 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal |
|
|
Tom K. wrote: |
Hmm. I wouldn't rule out engine oil or tranny oil. That drop certainly is not red. |
You have a good point there. I would think with fresh new ATF it should be more red. How could it be engine oil though unless the new main seal is bad? When I dropped the engine, there was no sign of tyranny oil but it's possible I missed something. Running it longer should help diagnose the issue!! _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Last edited by Marcdeb on Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
volksworld Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011 Posts: 2530 Location: formerly NY currently NC
|
Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal |
|
|
i wouldnt do anything drastic...normally some fluid will leak out as you attempt to stuff the full converter onto its shaft...it could have puddled in the bottom of the bellhousing ...i'd just clean everything up and try again...usually flywheel seal will leak right at the joint between the engine and trans, not where you're seeing the drip |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal |
|
|
volksworld wrote: |
i wouldnt do anything drastic...normally some fluid will leak out as you attempt to stuff the full converter onto its shaft...it could have puddled in the bottom of the bellhousing ...i'd just clean everything up and try again...usually flywheel seal will leak right at the joint between the engine and trans, not where you're seeing the drip |
I had installed the TC several weekes before putting the engine in. During that time there was not a single drop. I filled the TC only to the point where it would overflow when i stood it up. I assumed it would fill the rest of the way when I started the engine! That's why I ran it for just a few minutes and turned it off to check and make sure the level was going down in the reservoir. Then add more to the reservoir. Is that not a good way to do this?
The back of the car is still jacked up so leak is running down hill. _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal |
|
|
volksworld wrote: |
i wouldnt do anything drastic...normally some fluid will leak out as you attempt to stuff the full converter onto its shaft...it could have puddled in the bottom of the bellhousing ...i'd just clean everything up and try again...usually flywheel seal will leak right at the joint between the engine and trans, not where you're seeing the drip |
I'm thinking you are correct. It's not ATF. But something is very wrong.
I started the car again and ran it for 3 minutes and had to shut it down because I noticed smoke. At first I thought it was coming from the exhaust, but after shutting it down, noticed the smoke was coming from between the firewall and the fan shroud. It started right away, sounds normal to me. Sound wise, I hear nothing out of the ordinary.
By the way, I never had any warning lights come on.
Prior to shutting it down, I was watching for the leak which started dripping about 30 seconds after starting the engine. The oil looks very dark but I just filled it with fresh oil. It's not leaking that fast and it seemed to be slowing down. It looked like it was stopping but then I noticed that the engine was smoking and I shut it down after exactly 3 minutes.
I checked and the belt and generator are turning fine. After turning it off, I checked and the fan does turn when I manually turn the belt. I would think the engine should not get that hot idling after only 3 minutes should it? It's not the best picture but here's a picture of the smoke between the firewall and fan shroud and it continued to smoke for 5 or 6 minutes.
The oil level is fine and the oil looks clean at the dipstick, but the oil that is dripping out is quite black and I'm seeing metal flakes?? Here's the oil that's dripping out:
While the engine was out I installed a new forward main seal, o-ring, and oil cooler seals. New push rod tubes and seals, (new push rod tubes were "windage tubes" with the longer end going into the heads). ***EDIT: The longer end was NOT in the heads, I put the longer ends in the case.
I removed the ATF section of the oil pump and put new seals in the plate that separates the oil from the ATF. I believe the ATF is circulating as the reservoir did go down about a couple of pints after running the engine the first time. If the ATF portion is working, I would think the oil pump is working?
Not likely related but I did test how it shifts before noticing it was getting hot. I went in and out of first gear several times and it seemed to shift smooth and normal.
I have no more ideas at this point? _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Last edited by Marcdeb on Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10406 Location: NW Arkansas
|
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
I'm just spitballing here but is it possible that you did not install the oil/ ATF pump seals correctly when you had the pump apart, allowing engine oil to mix with ATF, circulate through the TC circuit then dripping out around the TC seal? Would explain darker than ATF leaking from the vicinity of the bell housing. What do your oil/ ATF levels look/ smell like? _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
sb001 wrote: |
I'm just spitballing here but is it possible that you did not install the oil/ ATF pump seals correctly when you had the pump apart, allowing engine oil to mix with ATF, circulate through the TC circuit then dripping out around the TC seal? Would explain darker than ATF leaking from the vicinity of the bell housing. What do your oil/ ATF levels look/ smell like? |
My first thought was the TC Seal but mostly because that was my one biggest worry after reading so many posts and videos about how the aftermarket seals can leak. And that is where the TC seal leak would show up.
At this point it looks like the oil and/or engine is not being cooled. I drained the oil and it looks darker than I expected. There's about a half inch of oil in the drain pain in this picture and I put some oil in the sump plate to show that it's not totally black.
Here's what I know at this point.
The generator and fan are locked together and the generator turned fine.
I had no warning lights.
I looked everywhere for signs of an oil leak and all is dry except for the bottom of the bell housing and that leak is oil not ATF.
Only leaks when engine is running.
The oil that dripped out at the bottom of the bell housing does have metallic specks.
If the oil cooler was leaking I would see signs of oil around the top of the engine or coming down on to the push rod tubes but all is dry.
Since the oil is dark after just a few minutes, am I wrong to assume the oil is circulating through the engine?
I keep coming back to the main seal which I replaced and if I did something wrong there? And even if the main seal or O-ring are leaking, why would that cause the engine to heat up so much?
I checked the bolt heads that mount the TC to the Flexplate and they are fine.
If oil was coming from the main seal, wouldn't it be dripping from the bottom of the case? Not from the bell housing?
I don't see how any oil could be getting into the bell housing so quickly after starting the engine and why that would cause the engine to heat up?
Does anything look obviously wrong with the main seal and flexplate?
_________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10406 Location: NW Arkansas
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
You literally mentioned everything except what I was actually referring to- that was the oil/ ATF PUMP O-ring seals that you said you replaced.
I am wondering if engine oil is getting into the ATF circuit at the pump, through that barrier plate somehow. If you perhaps did not put the new seals in place correctly-- or forgot to replace the woodruff key in the gear shaft that goes through that barrier plate the plate can back off. Another possibility is that those O-ring seals actually sit in recessed metal casings in the plate, to replace them properly you actually need to remove these metal casings and punch out the old seals and then replace them, instead of trying to dig the old seals out. Any missteps here might allow engine oil & ATF to mix, allowing engine oil to enter into the ATF chamber and get circulated throughout the ATF circuit, into the bell housing and drip out around the converter seal-- I have literally zero clue what mixing those fluids would do to the viscosity of either, but I imagine the heavier weight of oil may enable it to seep out from around the torque converter seal once the mixture arrives at that point. It would also explain why what's dripping out, if it is indeed coming out from around the TC seal or the bell housing, is black instead of red ATF.
I may be TOTALLY off base it's just a thought. But just for peace of mind you might read up on Tom K's thread here where he discusses resealing his oil/ ATF combo pump in detail to make sure you got everything right:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=60
P.S. What you keep saying about the dangers of trying to replace the torque converter seal is the exact reason I have not attempted to do it in the last 10 or so times I have removed my engine I did it once years ago and not even sure how I did it that well then, but I'd rather not attempt it again. _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Last edited by sb001 on Tue May 30, 2023 5:10 pm; edited 4 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10406 Location: NW Arkansas
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
Also take a look at this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160049
Sounds VERY similar to the issues you are having, right down to the engine running very hot and smoke coming out from behind the fan shroud. Looks like he traced his issue back to the pump as well... _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
Thanks for the ideas. I did a lot of reading as I worked on the engine and I read Tom's thread several times. It's a very helpful thread. I did replace the seals on the oil pump and I had no issues there. I popped them out intact by using a socket and small hammer to gently tap them out. And yes I did put the woodruff key in. I don't see any evidence that the oil and ATF have mixed but I'm just a back yard mechanic. I just read the thread you linked. It is exactly the same symptoms. I could remove the breast plate and pulley and pull the pump to check. If its is contaminated ATF fluid coming from the TC seal, I would think it would have at least some red color to it though?
As I mentioned, I originally mixed up the plug wires and the car would try to start but then I would feel and hear a thud. I probably got that 4 or 5 times before realizing I had to double check the plug wires. So I'm wondering if that could have caused any damage? Like with the flex plate or gland nut? _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Last edited by Marcdeb on Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
Tom K. wrote: |
What did you go regarding end play after inserting the new engine seal? |
Being that the car only has 23,000 miles on it, and I wasn't going beyond the seal and O-ring, I did not check end play. Is that a big mistake?
If the the O-ring or the main seal were leaking, I would be seeing oil coming out at the bottom of the case where that small gap is? right? Not from the forward opening of the bell housing? _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10406 Location: NW Arkansas
|
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
Marcdeb wrote: |
As I mentioned, I originally mixed up the plug wires and the car would try to start but then I would feel and hear a thud. I probably got that 4 or 5 times before realizing I had to double check the plug wires. So I'm wondering if that could have caused any damage? Like with the flex plate or gland nut? |
I guess I missed this part before. The fact that you were feeling/ hearing a thud when you had the plug wires wrong is a bit concerning to me- I can't possibly see how just having the plug wires mixed up could cause a thud unless there was already something else wrong. At worst the engine should have just continued cranking but never fired.
Are you saying that once you had the plug wires properly placed the car fires up with no thud?
You're sure you had the torque converter seated all the way in on the splined clutch support (takes some jiggling and pushing to get it to slide on all the way back) and you did reinstall the torque converter bolts? Only other thing I can think is the gland nut came loose. (In that thread I linked above that guy said he had smoke from behind his fan shroud on his old motor because that happened.) How did you tighten your gland nut back on?
Shooting blanks here.... _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
All good ideas to check since this is my first time doing this. The torque converter went on exactly like I had read about, and it did seat all the way in. Yes, all 4 bolts lined up perfectly. If the TC was not on all the way, I would think the engine would not go flush to the bell housing and wouldn't ATF gush out?
The engine fired up normally and sounded good after I corrected the plug wires. The word "thud" might not be the best word but basically the engine was trying to fire out of order. I recognized what was happening right away.
I have wondered about the gland nut myself and tried to think what the symptoms would be if it was loose, broken, or came off. Yesterday, I checked to see if I could see any signs of damage on the TC or the bolts but all looked normal but I can only see the areas from the access holes.
I used a torque wrench to remove and install the gland nut and I used red Loctite. I found several different methods others have used to torque the gland nut and this was what I had available. _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Last edited by Marcdeb on Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
regordracis Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2019 Posts: 148 Location: Hamilton Ontario Canada
|
Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
Geez , I'm only half-a-step behind you ... now I'm getting freaked out ! _________________ Roger ... "Lost in the haze of alcohol-soft middle age" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10406 Location: NW Arkansas
|
Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
Yes likely you would see ATF fluid leaking out + hear some weird banging sounds if the TC was not fully seated.
I would think a loose gland nut would also cause banging of the flex plate slipping on the crank & against the case, but I don't know- it may be sandwiched in there enough where friction alone drives it, but I can imagine this would heat up the engine real fast and may explain the smoke you saw.
I think one thing is for sure, you're going to have to pull the engine back out to fully investigate. The only thing I can think of that you might be able to check without doing that is pulling the crank pulley back off and checking the dual pump.
But hey now that you've done it once, you can do it again in 1/10 the time! _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
The dual pump keeps coming to mind for me as well but it wouldn't explain everything. I agree about dropping the engine again. Thanks for all your ideas. I look forward to understanding what I could have done wrong. _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
regordracis wrote: |
Geez , I'm only half-a-step behind you ... now I'm getting freaked out ! |
Well, double check everything and hopefully you will have your car back on the road soon. _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Marcdeb Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019 Posts: 3039 Location: Vermont
|
Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Autostick Torque Converter Seal. Engine getting hot |
|
|
More clues.
When I first started the engine, the leaking fluid under the bell housing had tiny metal particles in it, but when I drained the oil, I found none.
I'm back to suspecting an ATF leak, not an oil leak.
I'm finding drops of oil/ATF (?) in many places around the bell housing and I am wondering if it's dirty ATF? I compared the smell of new ATF and oil and the ATF is quite obvious when there's a large quantity but these little drops here and there aren't enough to judge the smell.
The original leak is under the drivers side of the bell housing on the corner of the rectangular opening but there's also the same oil drops coming off each lower engine bolt head near the same rectangular opening. Under the right lighting conditions, the drops do have a reddish tint to them. Today I checked inside the rectangular opening and I can't be positive but I don't see any wetness on the inside so I'm thinking that dripping was coming down the outside of the bell housing.
There's also the same reddish brown drops coming off the two right side temperature switches. The bottom bolt holding the starter above the temperature switches looks wet as well though not as bad.
I also noticed a leak Under the ATF tank, has nothing to do with all this but I thought it was interesting that there's a drop of nice clean red ATV on the bottom of the connector, but then I noticed another drop about an inch away that is brown as if it's gotten dirty along the way.
All of these drops are the same color. I'm wondering if these are all ATF leaks that have picked up grease and dirt along the way? Also noticed in a photo that there is a ring around the torque converter that looks to be a weld and it is not rust colored like the rest of the TC. I don't see signs of scraping or wear, just a grey color?? Unfortunately I never took a prior photo of the TC to compare to.
Does anybody know if ATF was on the outside of a hot engine, if it would cause the white smoke I had coming up from the firewall?
So far, I'm not able to trace the drops around the bell housing to one source?
I assumed the ATF was circulating properly since the tank level went down after running the car - as I expected it to.
What about the Relief Valve on the ATF side of the oil pump. Might these leaks be caused by too much pressure? How do I check that it's working? I tightened everything to torque specs except when space didn't allow using a torque wrench. I have a lot of experience when it comes to tightening hardware, so I don't think I'm making connections too loose. As to the temperature switches and the starter, they were not touched during this project.
What would the symptoms be if the starter was not releasing? Would I hear it? I'm wondering if the starter can get hot enough to cause ATF fluid to burn and let off white smoke?
I'm planning to drop the engine again but won't have time for that for a while. I feel better that it looks like there's not something wrong with the engine. Seeing the smoke coming up from the firewall and the tiny metal flakes in the drops of oil (or ATF) had me worried that the engine got over heated.
This can't be a first time problem? Has anyone had similar problems? _________________ Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Last edited by Marcdeb on Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|