Top Mounts (replacements) for my 1969 411

[lateral]

Hi guys

I have a 1969 411 (RHD) and it looks like the Top Mounts on the Macpherson Struts are faulty and need replacing.

Firstly, are there any swap out/swap in 100% compatible replacements available?

I have been told that the early 1302 Top Mounts can be used by re-drilling the mounting holes:

https://www.justkampers.com.au/catalog/product/vie...ategory/2/

Thanks for your help.

Cheers
Greg

[412STi]

Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way.
Simply re-drilling the mounting holes is not enough.
The center hole would also have to be enlarged for this.
In the last year of production of Type 4 (74-75), VW changed the domes on the storage to Super Beetle and Rabbit.
But this is not compatible with the previous version.
_________________
Gerold
The morning brings a mystery, the evening makes it history

The oil can not be, was none in it.

[raygreenwood]

[lateral]

Hi guys

Firstly, thanks for the quick replies.

As requested, here is the photo of the bolt pattern of the top mount. The bolts are symmetrical and 95mm apart.

[raygreenwood]

[lateral]

Hi Ray

I’ll do what you suggest tomorrow and post some more pictures.

Thanks again for everyone’s help!

Cheers
Greg

[lateral]

Hi guys

Here a a few pics of both the right hand and left hand side Top mounts.

Interesting to note that the mounts seem to still have the white waxy protective coating and I can't see any tears or damage.

Should I be looking for anything else?

Cheers
Greg

[raygreenwood]

OK! Good pictures!

Could you please measure with a caliper .....the diameter of the rubber bushing you see at the hole and also the hole in the sheet metal as well.

And for God's sake....do not lift the car off the ground with the top nut off!

Once you get the top nut back on, lift the front end up one side at a time and take the wheel off.
Get a stool and get comfortable next to the rotor. With a flashlight look upward. You may have to use a screwdriver and your ringers to pull the bump stop and the boot downward.

The way the upper mount and bushing assembly is made....you have a steel plate with a hole a 3.5" in diameter in it. The rubber is cast through that hole so that the part with the bearing or steel bushing....has about 4/5ths on top of the plate and 1/5th underneath. You can think of it a being made like a giant "grommet".

You are looking for very fine cracks in the rubber on the section on the underside. You can only see this when the car is off the ground and the combined weight of the strut, wheel casting and spring pressure....stretch the bonded rubber downward. A few very fine cracks is no big deal. Deep cracks or distortion or misshapen rubber under the plate or rubber peeling away from the plate means you need a new strut mount.

You have the very earliest design of strut mount. They are pretty rare anymore.

They are also the most bullet proof. They did have a tendency to wear out the center steel bushing that is around the strut rod....from the few I have actually seen. Take your hand and wiggle the strut rod while you have the top plate and nut off. If there is not significant play....maybe no more than about 0.025"....it should be fine.

The one in your second picture looks to have a little excessive slack but it could be the light. I will have to look in the parts diagram to see if there is a thin wall shim bushing between the strut rod and the bonded in steel bushing.

So....the reason why the changed from this simpler friction bushing to a later ball bearing in the middle years when it was otherwise the same rubber bushing and plate.....is because the small gap that wears between strut rod and steel bushing causes a little bit of rattle.

Cumulatively, along with other small tolerances in parts like the idler arm bushing....these small rattles can cause hard to diagnose vibrations are various speeds. Other than that it's not unsafe by any means.

In the middle years version, the went to an FAG ball bearing, swaged into a metal cup that was of almost ridiculously high quality for the near "0" rpm and load it would see. It also had a nylon center bushing to make a tighter fit on the strut rod with no wear.

If everything checks out...no cracks in the rubber underneath and no rubber separation from the plate....I would keep what you have. If the wear in the steel bushing is a little bit excessive, I would take the bushing unit off, sand the inside with a Dremel tool just enough oversize to install a thin wall nylon sleeve bearing and it will tighten that right up. Ray

[lateral]

Thanks Ray!

I'll do what you suggest and report back.

Cheers
Greg

[lateral]

Hi Ray,

I have checked the rubber from the top and it is all pliable and looks like new. No cracks or damage.

I replaced the nut and raised the car on a hoist and couldn't pull down the plastic cover to properly check from underneath.

I have attached the photos that show the dimensions.

From the top, I checked where the shock chrome centre tube protrudes through the centre of the rubber mount (on both side) and there doesn't appear to be any excessive slack so I think it was just the light/shadow.

I have included a photo of the shock showing that the springs have been replaced with aftermarket springs at some stage.

I noted that the springs on both sides are positioned so that the "tight multi" coil is located at the top...is this an issue?

Also, if I look at the parts book, it looks as though I should have a "Damping Ring - 411 411 211" which I don't have.

Whilst the car was up on the hoist, I checked out the Steering Idler bush and found that it has lots of play.

Here's a link to a video I took. I moved the wheel against the stop. Expand it so that you can see the amount of movement:

https://rodpenroseracing.com.au/blog/technical-articles/idler-arm-bush-movement

I have found these 2 options for a new Idler Arm Bush:

https://www2.cip1.com/vwc-411-417-325/

Brass version:

https://www2.cip1.com/acc-c10-4020/

I also checked out the Lower Control Arm and the tie rod ends at each end look good. I have been told that there is only 1 Lower Control Arm for both RHD and LHD cars...can somebody please confirm this?

I then checked the other tie rods and I am a bit confused as the parts book I have says that the 2 inner tie rods should be 9 degree cranked (angled) the same as a Type 3 (311 415 818B).

Mine all look straight.

I checked the sway bar bushes and the sway bar has about 2-3mm movement in one of them as per the following photo:

So, there are a few questions:

1. Which new idler Bush do I purchase from the 2 I've listed previously?

2. Is my 1969 411 supposed to have 9 degree angled inner tie rod ends?

3. Are my tie rod ends small or large taper?

4. Where can I get new sway bar bushes?

5. Is the worn idler arm bush the most probable cause of the vibration whilst driving down hill at between 60-65kph and gets worse when I brake?

6. Ball Joints - I would also like to replace the Ball Joints...any idea where I can get a set? Is the correct part number for my year - 411 412 165C?

7. Steering damper - I would also like to replace this as well....any idea of where I can get one, modify some other model or can mine be rebuilt.

8. Other rubbers in the front end - there are a number of donut style rubbers in the front end and I would like to replace those as well.

9. Is there only 1 drag/centre link used across all years for both RHD and LHD cars? Is the part number 411 417 353?

That's about it for the moment and I look forward to your reply and comments.

Cheers
Greg

[wonkipop]

[412STi]

Because of the springs:

So, for the function itself, it is quite irrelevant how a spring is mounted. (mostly)
But the manufacturer still thought of something, because normally a spring is correct installed in such a way that the labeling can be read correctly.
It also sits better in the spring plates at the bottom and top.

Here in our country you would fail the technical inspection with springs installed like this, because the inspector assumes that they are installed incorrectly. (regardless of whether that would be technically irrelevant)
_________________
Gerold
The morning brings a mystery, the evening makes it history

The oil can not be, was none in it.

[lateral]

Thanks Gerold.

[raygreenwood]

Technichally...as noted...those springs are upside down.

That does not mean that they are dangerous or will not work....but there are differences.

Notice that the coils at the top are closer together. Those are supposed to be at the bottom and are the "load" springs. Those that are spaced further apart are the "comfort" or flex springs.

The way they are now MIGHT better control the issues there were with the stock struts (weak rebound). It can also make for rough ride. Hard to say because I do not know what those came from.

The stock springs came in at least three variety. All were slightly progressive...similar to those. Some of the later ones un 412 had more coils and thicker wire.

I will take a few minutes in teh am to go over the rest of the details from your pictures. Ray

[lateral]

Thanks Ray.

I really appreciate your help getting this stuff sorted out.

Cheers
Greg

[lateral]

Hi wonkipop

Sorry for the late reply.

The car was imported from Papua New Guinea in the early 1990's by Simon Glen.

He then took a few years to restore it.

I think it has passed thru 3 other owners before coming into my hands.

Apart from the front shimmy, the car is in great shape still and once I sort of the front end issues, it will be really a great car.

Cheers
Greg