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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:25 pm Post subject: Non-stop oil leak |
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Hello all, I have a 1980 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia. I’ve had it for over a decade and besides low-ish compression in cylinder three, she runs very well. Gradually over the years an oil leak has been haunting me iand this van, my wife and I’s last trip down the West Coast and back resulted in us spending nearly more money on oil than fuel. No matter what gasket I replace, crank seal oil cooler seals, rear main seal, valve cover gaskets, push rod tube seals, oil filter housing seal etc…after about 100 miles of driving, the back hatch and pop top, and bumper are caked in oil , the oil light never comes on and while you’re driving it, you would never think it’s shooting oil out the back. It’s been to a shop four times with me being told it’s fixed yet under-load it sprays oil out the back still.. I am totally lost. does anybody have any ideas? Could it be the rings? Any help would be appreciated!
Thank you. |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8835
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Non stop oil leak. |
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Are you sure there's absolutely no oil leaking anywhere in the engine bay or underneath?
I’ve seen this same condition of oil on the hatch and bumper even when a minor leak is hard to find and blowing with the wind.
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?” |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Non stop oil leak. |
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| E1 wrote: |
Are you sure there's absolutely no oil leaking anywhere in the engine bay or underneath?
I’ve seen this same condition of oil on the hatch and bumper even when a minor leak is hard to find and blowing with the wind. |
Yes, I’m sure. I’ve replaced everything. Oil does leak on the ground, but there’s multiple spots. It’s something I’ve never seen before. I’ve owned multiple bay windows, and Vanagons. This van just keeps on leaking. I keep racking my brain to see if I’m missing something. I just replaced the intake boot, and there was oil in the intake. |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8835
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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If leaking onto the ground, it can certainly end up on your hatch.
It’s coming from somewhere, and might be hard to find.
Is the level above the top notch? Is the crankcase vent unclogged? Has it ever smoked or run rough after a really long, off-throttle downhill run?
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?” |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| E1 wrote: |
If leaking onto the ground, it can certainly end up on your hatch.
It’s coming from somewhere, and might be hard to find.
Is the level above the top notch? Is the crankcase vent unclogged? Has it ever smoked or run rough after a really long, off-throttle downhill run? |
I usually keep the level just above the bottom notch. The crankcase breather is not clogged (I just blew through it, it’s probably worth replacing) I’ve been chasing this leak for years. The van isn’t my daily, but it’s gotten much worse the last couple trips. Never runs rough, never had the oil light come on say for one time in bumper to bumper traffic when it was 110 out, it flickered. The shop that I’ve taken it to that have said they “fixed it” 4 times have replaced multiple seals, let it idle for 10 minutes and call it good, which leads me to believe it gets worse under load. The only thing I can think of like you said is that it’s not getting proper crank case ventilation. |
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Howesight
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3429
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Non stop oil leak. |
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Considering the symptom that the oil leaks keep popping up, even after various seal and gasket replacements, the first thing that comes to mind for me is that the crankcase is being over-pressurized. The crankcase ventilation system is supposed to allow crankcase pressure to be controlled and released without blowing out the seals and gaskets. If blowby (past the rings) is severe, then the crankcase ventilation system can be overwhelmed with the amount of gas flow.
The oil in the intake could be normal or excessive, but either way, it originates in the crankcase gases.
The next step must be to clean all the oil-covered surfaces and run the engine to observe where the oil is emerging. Note that oil coolers can leak and on the Type 4 engine, the oil cooler is not easy to view without removing a bunch of cooling tin.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8835
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| The_Zodiac_11030 wrote: |
| E1 wrote: |
If leaking onto the ground, it can certainly end up on your hatch.
It’s coming from somewhere, and might be hard to find.
Is the level above the top notch? Is the crankcase vent unclogged? Has it ever smoked or run rough after a really long, off-throttle downhill run? |
I usually keep the level just above the bottom notch. The crankcase breather is not clogged (I just blew through it, it’s probably worth replacing) I’ve been chasing this leak for years. The van isn’t my daily, but it’s gotten much worse the last couple trips. Never runs rough, never had the oil light come on say for one time in bumper to bumper traffic when it was 110 out, it flickered. The shop that I’ve taken it to that have said they “fixed it” 4 times have replaced multiple seals, let it idle for 10 minutes and call it good, which leads me to believe it gets worse under load. The only thing I can think of like you said is that it’s not getting proper crank case ventilation. |
I started a thread a month ago about a strange oil leak we’ve been tracking. The higher the oil level, the worse the leak has been.
So far, only changing the breather tower has dramatically slowed or stopped it, despite damage to the diaphragm. Some ended up atop the head tins, some *used to* come out the capped bellhousing port to the top of the block until maybe 2,000 miles ago, more has seeped out the bellhousing above the exhaust pipe but mostly stopped now.
In other news, I think I’m soon starting a thread on the causes and effects of high crankcase pressure, and if that forces oil out the easiest path. The timing of your crankcase pressure comment is interesting.
Hopefully others will know more about your situation.
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?” |
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 10316
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| FWIW - I had a split on the underside of the big hose from the breather tower to the intake boot. It created an oil leak that took a while to track down. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52739
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| Changed the oil pressure switch yet? Since they are well hid under the tin, they can leak without being seen and the oil ends up all over the place as the switch is in the cooling air flow. |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Changed the oil pressure switch yet? Since they are well hid under the tin, they can leak without being seen and the oil ends up all over the place as the switch is in the cooling air flow. |
Yes, twice. 😕 |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Non stop oil leak. |
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| Howesight wrote: |
Considering the symptom that the oil leaks keep popping up, even after various seal and gasket replacements, the first thing that comes to mind for me is that the crankcase is being over-pressurized. The crankcase ventilation system is supposed to allow crankcase pressure to be controlled and released without blowing out the seals and gaskets. If blowby (past the rings) is severe, then the crankcase ventilation system can be overwhelmed with the amount of gas flow.
The oil in the intake could be normal or excessive, but either way, it originates in the crankcase gases.
The next step must be to clean all the oil-covered surfaces and run the engine to observe where the oil is emerging. Note that oil coolers can leak and on the Type 4 engine, the oil cooler is not easy to view without removing a bunch of cooling tin. |
I believe this is my issue. I just had the oil cooler out, tested, and installed with new seals. I’m thinking the rings in cylinder 3 where I have low compression (90 psi) is the culprit.. |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| Ahwahnee wrote: |
| FWIW - I had a split on the underside of the big hose from the breather tower to the intake boot. It created an oil leak that took a while to track down. |
Mine has collapsed into itself, but the leak (s) were there before that happened. Im going to get a new hose, and a new breather, but it looks like I’m looking at new rings in cylinder 3. |
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bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4710
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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Well, the basics are a good start... When you do an oil change, and you put the proper amount of oil in, what is the reading on the stick?
You might just have the wrong dipstick, and are overfilling it. I've had similar experiences with my many air cooled and WBX engines. You think they are right, then you compare them to another exactly same engine, and the length is different.. Somehow. I don't know how.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| bobbyblack wrote: |
Well, the basics are a good start... When you do an oil change, and you put the proper amount of oil in, what is the reading on the stick?
You might just have the wrong dipstick, and are overfilling it. I've had similar experiences with my many air cooled and WBX engines. You think they are right, then you compare them to another exactly same engine, and the length is different.. Somehow. I don't know how. |
I unfortunately don’t really have to change the oil because there’s always fresh oil in it.. (yes the leak is that bad) That’s something that I might look into. I get odd readings sometimes. |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 8276
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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The rings leak in cylinder #3 sounds like a good suspect. You may be able to verify it with a leakdown test to see what's leaking in that cylinder.
_________________
- Jim
| Butcher wrote: |
| This is the main fault with DIY'ers, they get together on these forums and pat themselves on their backs spreading bad information. |
Guilty as charged.
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Mateo83
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2021
Posts: 647
Location: Lodi, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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Even after i paid for new push rod seals, valve cover gaskets and rear seal, it still leaks. Could be over filled?
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83 Air-cooled 2.0 Tin Top |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 8835
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| bobbyblack wrote: |
Well, the basics are a good start... When you do an oil change, and you put the proper amount of oil in, what is the reading on the stick?
You might just have the wrong dipstick, and are overfilling it. I've had similar experiences with my many air cooled and WBX engines. You think they are right, then you compare them to another exactly same engine, and the length is different.. Somehow. I don't know how. |
I like and use the style of elimination of simple stuff before we know it’s tragic — especially if not 100% known at the expense of a poster’s blood pressure.
I had the very same issue with an incorrect dipstick tube, bought used when ours had a crack, and the vendor was a good guy and probably just didn’t know. Are the 1.9 and 2.1 tubes and sticks, and/or air-cooled tubes and sticks different, who knows…
That tube was somehow too long, so when reading full it was at least a half-notch above full, clogging a crankcase vent and blowing out huge, blue clouds when throttling after long downhills off-throttle — meaning, with high vacuum — through I suspect that blowby was a likely factor, too, in having a long time to vacuum up minimal oil that became maximal after ten minutes of vacuum.
We did have a small leak before changing the crankcase vent, and the leak completely stopped after the swap. On our current van, we had a much larger, bewildering leak last month that has (mostly or completely) stopped after removing the new-style vent and cleaning and swapping back to an original vent, and even removing the tattered diaphragm I aided in its destruction (wrong solvent).
I know you said your vent is clean but whether it’s working correctly or not is a topic I’ve yet to find resolution on. What I can say is to seal the bottom of the removed tower — I just used the palm of a hand — then suck and blow on the outlet. You should hear the valve opening and closing. In our recent case, the new-style tower went silent whereas in the old one the valve was working.
90 psi *is* low, and on #3 probably the most common, but in this case a leakdown test would be more telling. On our second van, we had a cylinder at 35% leakdown from purchase that went happily along for about 35,000 miles, before, I believe, an unrelated failure forced an engine swap.
So far as the hose from vent to intake sucking in, that may be a big clue but little idea why, beyond excess vacuum outside of my personal experiences — or it was a crappy or used-up hose to begin with. We have the silicone-wrapped style and it’d take a lot to collapse it.
There’s little doubt in my mind that too much oil adds to crankcase pressure, as does a clogged or dysfunctional vent. The new, non-original vents have no vent hole at all, which begs the question of exactly, precisely why it doesn’t and why the originals did — beyond equalizing atmospheric pressure for the diaphragm. I drilled a same-sized hole in the new vents matching the stock one anyway.
There’s a massive thread on this tower that for me answered nothing. A former engine builder wasn’t even quite sure how the heck it worked.
If in a position to easily change the ring, or them all, you might want to. But I’m not convinced you might not have another stupid-simple issue that’ll still cause leaks.
Sorry to run long, just trying to address details and hope they help.
_________________
If ever twice as rich, we’re gettin’ a double-wide
’84 “Westfailure”/2.1 Digijet/5.43 Ring & Pinion/Peloquin/D-rated BFG KO2s
AI has spoken to further illiteracy, to steal, to cheat, and to replace humans
The caveman’s first question to the headhunter: “Hey, you got any coffee?”
Last edited by E1 on Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52739
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| How about a few pictures of your engine compartment showing the vacuum hoses clearly. |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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[
quote="Wildthings"]How about a few pictures of your engine compartment showing the vacuum hoses clearly.[/quote] |
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The_Zodiac_11030
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2023
Posts: 27
Location: SW Washington/Portland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Non-stop oil leak |
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| E1 wrote: |
| bobbyblack wrote: |
Well, the basics are a good start... When you do an oil change, and you put the proper amount of oil in, what is the reading on the stick?
You might just have the wrong dipstick, and are overfilling it. I've had similar experiences with my many air cooled and WBX engines. You think they are right, then you compare them to another exactly same engine, and the length is different.. Somehow. I don't know how. |
I like and use the style of elimination of simple stuff before we know it’s tragic — especially if not 100% known at the expense of a poster’s blood pressure.
I had the very same issue with an incorrect dipstick tube, bought used when ours had a crack, and the vendor was a good guy and probably just didn’t know. Are the 1.9 and 2.1 tubes and sticks, and/or air-cooled tubes and sticks different, who knows…
That tube was somehow too long, so when reading full it was at least a half-notch above full, clogging a crankcase vent and blowing out huge, blue clouds when throttling after long downhills off-throttle — meaning, with high vacuum — through I suspect that blowby was a likely factor, too, in having a long time to vacuum up minimal oil that became maximal after ten minutes of vacuum.
We did have a small leak before changing the crankcase vent, and the leak completely stopped after the swap. On our current van, we had a much larger, bewildering leak last month that has (mostly or completely) stopped after removing the new-style vent and cleaning and swapping back to an original vent, and even removing the tattered diaphragm I aided in its destruction (wrong solvent).
I know you said your vent is clean but whether it’s working correctly or not is a topic I’ve yet to find resolution on. What I can say is to seal the bottom of the removed tower — I just used the palm of a hand — then suck and blow on the outlet. You should hear the valve opening and closing. In our recent case, the new-style tower went silent whereas in the old one the valve was working.
90 psi *is* low, and on #3 probably the most common, but in this case a leakdown test would be more telling. On our second van, we had a cylinder at 35% leakdown from purchase that went happily along for about 35,000 miles, before, I believe, an unrelated failure forced an engine swap.
So far as the hose from vent to intake sucking in, that may be a big clue but little idea why, beyond excess vacuum outside of my personal experiences — or it was a crappy or used-up hose to begin with. We have the silicone-wrapped style and it’d take a lot to collapse it.
There’s little doubt in my mind that too much oil adds to crankcase pressure, as does a clogged or dysfunctional vent. The new, non-original vents have no vent hole at all, which begs the question of exactly, precisely why it doesn’t and why the originals did — beyond equalizing atmospheric pressure for the diaphragm. I drilled a same-sized hole in the new vents matching the stock one anyway.
There’s a massive thread on this tower that for me answered nothing. A former engine builder wasn’t even quite sure how the heck it worked.
If in a position to easily change the ring, or them all, you might want to. But I’m not convinced you might not have another stupid-simple issue that’ll still cause leaks.
Sorry to run long, just trying to address details and hope they help. |
This seems like what I’m dealing with. This leak has been an issue for a decade and has gradually gotten worse. Do you know what the proper dipstick measures at? |
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