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Windisch
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Joined: October 30, 2014
Posts: 362
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:22 pm Post subject: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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Back story...Just bought (another 914-4); I've had several in the past as well as a 914-6. This one is a 1974 1.8 liter that has undergone a twin-weber conversion. When it was brought up to me from SoCal, I tried to start it (seller had said "It's been sitting for 8-10 months so give it several pumps on the go-pedal). I did and after a few false starts it fired up reluctantly but ran a bit rough and sounded a bit strange (noisy). Didn't give it a chance to warm up before switching it off and checking oil dipstick, which revealed correct oil level but indicated the 'oil' was a creamy color (the sort of creamy oil that a water-cooled engine with a blown head gasket might have). Then, I checked the carb and found on the driver's right side carb a bit of water (not much) on the foam filter support plate. The car lacks its original late-type water drip tray (of course) so the thought was that some water might have gotten down the car venturi throat...but how to explain the apparently water-contaminated oil?
Most strange and a bit perplexing. If anyone has some insight into what this might be all about to share w/me, please illuminate me! Seller said that before he sold it to a broker, (some months ago) it was running perfectly well, idling normally and giving no apparent signs of any running problems. Engine has about 73K miles on it.
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1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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A couple of things:
First off.....buy 9 quarts of oil and 2 filters. Make 4 quarts cheap oil and 4 quarts good oil. Drain the oil NOW. Do not start it or warm it up. Fill with the cheap oil and new filter. Start it and run it until warmed up. Drain it into a pan and inspect what comes out. It should be clean with a few flecks of milky stuff. Put the filter aside to cut open and inspect.
Pull the screen and Taco plate and inspect.
Now, put the good oil and new filter on. Run it and drive it until it's well warmed up.
A couple of items on how the water got inside. If it really had been only sitting for 8-10 months....and the water was getting in a little at a time from rain through the carb and the owner had only been starting it and running it for a few minutes at a time for battery maintenance.....meaning not warming it up.....the water can never evaporate from the oil.
Likewise, even if the water did not get in through the carb, if it was a humid location and the owner was only starting say weekly....and not warming it up....it can and will have a good amount of moisture in the oil that never evaporates and will cause this.
Hopefully you may have the luck that if he was not really running and driving it....it may not have had enough oil film failure to damage bearings and rings. Also, not being sitting for a long time like years....Hopefully you will have no rust on cylinder walls or case corrosion in the sump.
On to other things. Not having a proper PCV valve will also allow tons of water to condense into the case. Get rid of that stupid filter being used for a PCV on this engine.
Both the 1.7L and 1.8L had a proper PCV valve. While both of them were problematic in function while running, they both did have the proper function of when the engine stopped......the PCV snaps shut and the cases is at least moderately sealed from allowing moisture laden air from wafting in and out of the case as the external temperature rises and falls.
Being that you no longer have injection, you can use almost any PCV you want. Just make it a functional one. Plumb it to a T and feed it into your carbs.
That's the other thing with the original PCV valves on the injection engines. On the 1.7L it was a flow through system pulling filtered air from the air cleaner, through the rocker boxes and PR tubes and out the case chimney/PCV with manifold pressure. Under normal running conditions it kept crud and water from building up.
Ray |
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Windisch
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Joined: October 30, 2014
Posts: 362
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
A couple of things:
First off.....buy 9 quarts of oil and 2 filters. Make 4 quarts cheap oil and 4 quarts good oil. Drain the oil NOW. Do not start it or warm it up. Fill with the cheap oil and new filter. Start it and run it until warmed up. Drain it into a pan and inspect what comes out. It should be clean with a few flecks of milky stuff. Put the filter aside to cut open and inspect.
Pull the screen and Taco plate and inspect.
Now, put the good oil and new filter on. Run it and drive it until it's well warmed up.
A couple of items on how the water got inside. If it really had been only sitting for 8-10 months....and the water was getting in a little at a time from rain through the carb and the owner had only been starting it and running it for a few minutes at a time for battery maintenance.....meaning not warming it up.....the water can never evaporate from the oil.
Likewise, even if the water did not get in through the carb, if it was a humid location and the owner was only starting say weekly....and not warming it up....it can and will have a good amount of moisture in the oil that never evaporates and will cause this.
Hopefully you may have the luck that if he was not really running and driving it....it may not have had enough oil film failure to damage bearings and rings. Also, not being sitting for a long time like years....Hopefully you will have no rust on cylinder walls or case corrosion in the sump.
On to other things. Not having a proper PCV valve will also allow tons of water to condense into the case. Get rid of that stupid filter being used for a PCV on this engine.
Both the 1.7L and 1.8L had a proper PCV valve. While both of them were problematic in function while running, they both did have the proper function of when the engine stopped......the PCV snaps shut and the cases is at least moderately sealed from allowing moisture laden air from wafting in and out of the case as the external temperature rises and falls.
Being that you no longer have injection, you can use almost any PCV you want. Just make it a functional one. Plumb it to a T and feed it into your carbs.
That's the other thing with the original PCV valves on the injection engines. On the 1.7L it was a flow through system pulling filtered air from the air cleaner, through the rocker boxes and PR tubes and out the case chimney/PCV with manifold pressure. Under normal running conditions it kept crud and water from building up.
Ray |
Ray: Excellent insights and suggestions! Many thanks for that. I've had three prior 914-4s and also a '70 6, but never had a problem like this before, so your expertise is most appreciated! The car also has twin-throat dual Delortos (not Webers, as I may have earlier mistated things). That's another curve-ball for me, a person who has been strictly a SOLEX and WEBER guy in the past (although all my 914s of both types have kept their FI systems (I've never had a carb-equipped 914 before).
I'm going to get to work on the car's oil ASAP, following your recommendaytions (I've only had it for a day, so far). The car has named itself ('JEZIBEL'), BTW, since it's a real beauty but the H20/oil nuance really took me by surprise! Thanks again!
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1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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Windisch
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Joined: October 30, 2014
Posts: 362
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2024 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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Reference the oil/water emulsification problem, I drained the oil today and removed the filter (a K&N HP2004), both of which revealed creamy emulsification in the wet sump (and in the filter). Letting it drain fully today, then tomorrow I'll replenish the oil and give it a new (temporary) filter, as Ray suggested, then run the engine till it's completely warmed up and repeat the process. Hopefully that will take care of things, but reading all the on-line discussions about the deleterious effects of water on main bearings and cylinders/pistons can be somewhat scary (in that sometimes the water has done so much damage that the engine needs a pull-and-overhaul: expensive stuff, of course). I've toyed with the idea of asking the seller of the the car for a return of some of the purchase price (since there was absolutely no heads-up or other indication of a possible problem of this nature!) but bottom line is always 'caveat emptor!'. I sacrificed a chicken to the 914 God this evening; hopefully this pleased him and I'll manage to resolve my problem w/o further ado!
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
----------------------
Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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| Windisch wrote: |
| Reference the oil/water emulsification problem, I drained the oil today and removed the filter (a K&N HP2004), both of which revealed creamy emulsification in the wet sump (and in the filter). Letting it drain fully today, then tomorrow I'll replenish the oil and give it a new (temporary) filter, as Ray suggested, then run the engine till it's completely warmed up and repeat the process. Hopefully that will take care of things, but reading all the on-line discussions about the deleterious effects of water on main bearings and cylinders/pistons can be somewhat scary (in that sometimes the water has done so much damage that the engine needs a pull-and-overhaul: expensive stuff, of course). I've toyed with the idea of asking the seller of the the car for a return of some of the purchase price (since there was absolutely no heads-up or other indication of a possible problem of this nature!) but bottom line is always 'caveat emptor!'. I sacrificed a chicken to the 914 God this evening; hopefully this pleased him and I'll manage to resolve my problem w/o further ado! |
There are a couple of ways of looking at the "oil in water" emulsion. There are degrees to every problem. Of course the only way to know if there is any damage at all ....or alight damage or serious damage....is to disassemble the engine. Depending on how well the engine runs and how well it is detailed....I would wait on that.
See, the oil may have only gotten a few ounces of water in it....maybe a half pint to a pint. And, once that gets whipped up even running for just a minute or two at idle.....it can/will look just like coffee with creamer and look no different than oil with even more water in it.
You noted that the dipstick level was correct. To me, this is a good sign. I doubt....would hope....that the owner you bought it from did not check and drain off some of the contaminated oil just to keep the oil level correct!  ....just never know. So I am suggesting that it did not have much water in it.
At that point, as far as bearing lubrication....let's say even if it had half a quarter or water in it....so it's 7:1 oil to water. That slurry/mix....will pressurize just like oil. The bearings will have just as much of a hydrodynamic wedge so there will be no metal to metal during just a few minutes of no-load running.
The only big worry about lubrication in this condition is the sliding surfaces like rings and valve guides etc. Again, you did not run it long right?
The biggest worry is water in the oil, heavily emulsified over a long period of time.....long enough for oxygen to seperate from the water and cause rust.
But....i am betting on this. The car looks very nice. I would bet that the owner was not a slob or an idiot. He noted that it had not been run in 8-10 months right?
So, if somewhere in that period of time, water got in through one of the carbs it would drain down through an open valve into the crank case and sink to the bottom of the case. It would not be mixed up in the oil until it is started.
The owner you bought it from might walk up to the car, pop the hood and pull the dipstick and would more than likely just see fresh oil on the dipstick because the water and oil are not yet mixed into an emulsion.
So at this point in time, under that assumption, the biggest risk so far is possibly a few corrosion spots on the case bottom inside from the water beads and possibly corrosion on the one or more valves that the water drained through and maybe on the cylinder and ring it drained into the case through.
Depending on how long it had been sitting without starting when the water got in....there may have been enough lube/fuel on the cylinder to prevent wholesale rust.
I would go through the oil change out process....AND....clean out the carbs and inspect for corrosion in the jets in the carb that the water leaked through. Then start it, warm it up and do a compression test. That will tell you about the valves and rings.
Hopefully it was not much water and not for very long.
Ray |
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Windisch
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Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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Ray: Thanks again for this truly sagacious advice. Your experience and obvious expertise shines, here. All very much an assessment I would agree completely with and I certainly appreciate your insights into the matter. Discovering that water contamination problem was like sustaining a body-blow in a kick-fight competition, so the encouragement is tremendously helpful.
The original ('Conservative older gentleman') owner seems to have been a conscientious, dedicated car buff and put the car through an overall 'moderate restoration', from all appearances, so the water problem may have occurred in the interim during which the seller I bought the car from had acquired it in an 'estate sale', (after the earlier owner passed away unexpectedly). Unfortunately, any and all records and documentation for the car that doubtless existed prior to his death seem to have gotten lost in the estate settlement process. Poking around under the car reassures me that he took great pains to maintain and restore the car within modest limits. It's not a show-car, but it's certainly a pretty and well-maintained specimen. What we used to call in the Air Force, a "10-footer."
I'm hoping, as you observe, that the water emulsification in the oil was caused by a recent and very limited running time. I only drove the car off the car transport and into my garage, and instantly shut it down when it became apparent that something wasn't quite right. Hopefully, I acted in time to preclude and significant deleterious consequences.
More on this as I work further to rectify the situation. Thanks again! 
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
----------------------
Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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Windisch
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Joined: October 30, 2014
Posts: 362
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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UPDATE on this problem (Saturday, 20 Jan 24)
Completed the oil change and filter replacement today, examined the old oil and sure enough, clear evidence of water emulsion effects on the drained oil. Further there's superficial and slight evidence on both carbs that somehow water may have entrained into them (how much is uncertain). So, with the 'new' oil and 'new' filter installed, the next step (start the car up) will take place tomorrow. Meanwhile, I have a nextdoor neighbor who is a MC/sportscar enthusiast (who does all of his own work) that I consulted in this and we concur that a pressure-wash of the car (& engine) may likely have caused the water contamination (both the rough running---water in carbs) AND the contaminated oil in sump. MOST interesting, eh?
The seller apparently isn't (or wasn't) aware of the caveats concerning 914-type mid-engine cars, fitted with twin dual-webers, that have had the OEM drain-tray under the grill removed! Of course, additionally, Rule #1 is NEVER use a pressure-washer to clean an engine, either in or out of the car, and this is starting to look extremely likely to have caused this whole unhappy brujahjah.
Owning a 914 is, after all, something like adopting a dog: you MUST know something about the breed and its behavioral traits/needs/whatever, before bringing it home! [I reference my favored Siberian Husky breed here in the analogue; you REALLY have to learn about what to expect with a Husky!).]
See the below photos of the carb venturies (with filter removed) and the drained sump oil (YUK!). The prosecution rests, yer honner! 
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
----------------------
Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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Windisch
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Posts: 362
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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Ray (or anyone out there): I suspect that my two dual-throat carbs have water in the float-bowl reservoir that needs to be drained out. Where is the float-bowl chamber and drain plug on a Weber twin-throat upright carb? Presumably there is one and that the float-bowl is situated on the inner-side of said carb, eh? My idea is that if I drain the float-bowl, this will remove the contaminating H20. Sources say that one should refill the bowl with fresh fuel thereaafter, but I'm uncertain how to do that and I certainly DO NOT want to disassemble the carb (that's WAY beyond my comfort level with this type of carb set-up that I am unfamiliar with (I'm strictly a SOLEX 34-3 PICT VW carb guy). Thanks.
I think the carb in question (on my 914) is a Weber IDF 40mm type.
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
----------------------
Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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| Windisch wrote: |
Ray (or anyone out there): I suspect that my two dual-throat carbs have water in the float-bowl reservoir that needs to be drained out. Where is the float-bowl chamber and drain plug on a Weber twin-throat upright carb? Presumably there is one and that the float-bowl is situated on the inner-side of said carb, eh? My idea is that if I drain the float-bowl, this will remove the contaminating H20. Sources say that one should refill the bowl with fresh fuel thereaafter, but I'm uncertain how to do that and I certainly DO NOT want to disassemble the carb (that's WAY beyond my comfort level with this type of carb set-up that I am unfamiliar with (I'm strictly a SOLEX 34-3 PICT VW carb guy). Thanks.
I think the carb in question (on my 914) is a Weber IDF 40mm type. |
Yep...thats why I was worried about the carbs. If the water got in through the carbs...the crabs probably have water in them.
Take a look at this exploded view:
https://www.carbparts.eu/exploded_view/WEBER_40_IDF_70
It has been a long time since I worked on carbs but it looks like just a few screws and part #1 and the gasket 41 comes off...and then four more screws (#55's) and the whole upper assembly #3 should come off.
An easier way might be to disconnect the linkage, remove the four bolts on each side and just take the whole carb off and dump it upside down so anything inside runs out the bowl vent. Then spray it out with something fast drying like Berrymans B-12 carb cleaner. Put a new gasket on between head and carb. Ray |
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Windisch
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Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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Yep...thats why I was worried about the carbs. If the water got in through the carbs...the carbs probably have water in them.
Take a look at this exploded view:
https://www.carbparts.eu/exploded_view/WEBER_40_IDF_70
It has been a long time since I worked on carbs but it looks like just a few screws and part #1 and the gasket 41 comes off...and then four more screws (#55's) and the whole upper assembly #3 should come off.
An easier way might be to disconnect the linkage, remove the four bolts on each side and just take the whole carb off and dump it upside down so anything inside runs out the bowl vent. Then spray it out with something fast drying like Berrymans B-12 carb cleaner. Put a new gasket on between head and carb. Ray[/quote]
Thanks, Ray. Appreciated!
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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Root_Werks
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Joined: December 31, 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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Nice looking 914!
That picture shows a lot of water and as others have already said, probably came in through the carb air cleaners. Yikes!
Also makes me wonder if the T-Stat and flaps are all connected and working properly? Not allowing the engine oil to warm up causes moister build up. Though certainly not that much.
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Windisch
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Posts: 362
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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| Root_Werks wrote: |
Nice looking 914!
That picture shows a lot of water and as others have already said, probably came in through the carb air cleaners. Yikes!
Also makes me wonder if the T-Stat and flaps are all connected and working properly? Not allowing the engine oil to warm up causes moister build up. Though certainly not that much. |
Well, finally got the oil change and new filter work done and started the car up; no sweat. It came back like a champ and runs normally, if seemingly a bit louder than I am accustomed to (on my previous 914s). The custom exhaust is probably responsible for that, though. Next step is to take it down to a local VW/Porsche garage that is familiar with the Typ 411/412 'suitcase' engine and have them check it out to be sure everything is operating properly. [I hear that the 411/412/914-4 type alternator is a bitch to get to and/or adjust, but it seems to be working just fine.] The car has a simple lever-type 'kill switch' on the pos. pole battery lug, which is good. Saves me from having to install a keyed-type kill switch. Oil is now clear and golden, just as it ought to be, and whatever H20 that remained in the carbs appears to no longer be a problem (put some HEET in the gas tank, as well, just to be sure). Car seems to like the K&N 2004 oil filter (and so do I, given it's nice big metric-type lug on the closed end).
I'm going to sleep better now at night and will go have a small tot of Martel Cordon Bleu Cognac! to celebrate.  Thanks for the moral support, folks!
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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Windisch
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Posts: 362
Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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PS: Yes, the flaps are still in place, but I didn't check the thermostat switch (will do that).
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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[email protected]
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Location: atlanta ga
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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| your bellows flaps are missing so the car does not heat up quickly enough, so you have excess water vapor in the crankcase |
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Windisch
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Location: Sacramento, CA 95822
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Strange discovery: water in the oil and rough running? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| your bellows flaps are missing so the car does not heat up quickly enough, so you have excess water vapor in the crankcase |
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I thought the flaps in question were those marked by black arrow in the attached image, but apparently those are not the 'bellow flaps', which presumably should be highlighted by white arrow, eh? If so, I guess they are indeed missing. Hmmm, and hmmm again!
ain!
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1973 Standard Beetle, 1974 VW/Porsche 914-4, 1.8 liter
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Der Volkswagen ist ein Ausdruck der deutschen Kultur der Allrad Art ...
[The only irrefutable evidence we have that intelligent life truly exists elsewhere in the Universe is the fact that so far it has NOT contacted humanity...] |
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