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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:04 am Post subject: Aftermarket injectors |
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I recently saw a mention of these new (not NOS) aftermarket injectors for buses (L-Jetronic) on a thread:
Standard Motor Products (SMP) FJ6 injectors (*)
This picqued my curiosity, as previously I thought no one made such injectors anymore, and that the only option was either to recondition old Bosch injectors or to get hold of some NOS ones. Also, I'm not sure if SMP is the maker or a reseller.
I could not find any information online about their specs on the SMP site to compare them with the stock injectors (**), so I was wondering if someone had had any experience (good or bad) with them.
But also on the more general topic: are there other known good aftermarket injectors that are still available?
(*) The picture here seems to be misleading, as on the SMP site they are blue injectors with the non-curved hose. Yet the SMP site has its own e-catalog thing that does not allow direct links to products, hence the Amazon link - the pic might not be accurate, but at least we get the price.
(**) The SMP catalog site has a vehicle check tool that tells me they'd be a fit for a '79 2.0L bus, though. _________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21521 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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furgo wrote: |
I recently saw a mention of these new (not NOS) aftermarket injectors for buses (L-Jetronic) on a thread:
Standard Motor Products (SMP) FJ6 injectors (*)
This picqued my curiosity, as previously I thought no one made such injectors anymore, and that the only option was either to recondition old Bosch injectors or to get hold of some NOS ones. Also, I'm not sure if SMP is the maker or a reseller.
I could not find any information online about their specs on the SMP site to compare them with the stock injectors (**), so I was wondering if someone had had any experience (good or bad) with them.
But also on the more general topic: are there other known good aftermarket injectors that are still available?
(*) The picture here seems to be misleading, as on the SMP site they are blue injectors with the non-curved hose. Yet the SMP site has its own e-catalog thing that does not allow direct links to products, hence the Amazon link - the pic might not be accurate, but at least we get the price.
(**) The SMP catalog site has a vehicle check tool that tells me they'd be a fit for a '79 2.0L bus, though. |
SMP.....Standard Motor Products.....the manufacturer of the original "Blue Streak" Ignition points and a company that has been in the automotive industry since the beginning.........technically IS the manufacturer.
The possible issue though......if you take a look at the history of SMP over the last 20 years or so........is it actually SMP ........or a company or division that SMP acquired?......and does it make a difference?
You might keep an eye on a thread in the 914 forum right now. There is a gent there that just purchased two SMP FJ116 injectors.
Yes.....they are D-Jet and not L-jet.......and they have a different nozzle/pintle design......but they are the correct impedance and flow rate and other 914 owners say they have had no issues with them.
How they work out for this person......if there are differences.....may be another positive or negative benchmark with reference to SMP injector quality in general.
The person in question.....only bought two of the new pattern SMP injectors and is running them with two original Bosch injectors. Once we get his connectivity issues sorted out and he is up and running......it may be a good comparison as to how far different the SMP injector is from stock.
I have not yet been able to find a picture of the FJ-6 L-jet injector tip without the plastic pintle cover so I do not know if its the new design like the FJ-114 and FJ-116 for D-jet that looks like this
Ray |
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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Thanks Ray. Then also probably SMP is the only company making aftermarket injectors for the bus. I've read on other threads that Lucas made some injectors at some point too, but that was for Vanagons. Good to hear it's a well-established company, which hopefully shows in the quality of their injectors
When I first wrote the post, I had contacted SMP with an enquiry on the injector specs. Here's what they've just sent me:
Quote: |
FJ6 injector
Impedance 2.4 Ohms
Outline Type EV 1 Injector with Straight Hose
Spray Type 12° Pintle Cone Spray
Static Flow Rate 145.00 g/min ± 6%
TEST CONDITIONS
Pressure 3.0 ± 0.01 Bar
Temperature 20° ± 1°C
Test Fluid Type n-Heptane
Test Fluid Specification ULS-02-02-008
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Just for fun and profit, I then went along to compare these values to the 1984 Bosch datasheet for two reference injectors for the bus:
A few things caught my eye:
I assume "Pintle cone spray" means the delivery is via a pintle instead of a disc. So the same as the stock injectors.
No dynamic flow specified for the FJ6 injector. I guess most manufacturers use the static flow (i.e. injectors driven at 100% duty cycle) anyway.
No impedance value in the Bosch datasheet. I have six of the Bosch 0 280 150 105 injectors on my bench and I measured it with a good multimeter.
Static flow rate: 145 g/min => 211.99 cm3/min (FJ6) vs 185 cm3/min (Bosch).
Unrelated to the specs, but the injectors are quite cheap in price I understand they're made by SMP themselves
The specs in summary and for comparison:
Impedance:
Measured: 2.9 Ohm [1]; 2.5 Ohm [3]
Bosch datasheet: N/A
SMP FJ6: 2.4 Ohm
Static flow:
Measured: 190.2 cm3/min (136.8 g/min, with petrol @ 3 bar) [2]
Bosch datasheet: 185 cm3/min (test liquid and pressure not specified, probably petrol @ 3 bar)
SMP FJ6: 211.99 cm3/min (145 g/min, with n-Heptane @ 3 bar)
Dynamic flow:
Measured: (I can't make sense of the units at [2])
Bosch datasheet: 5.4 mm3/Hub [4]
SMP FJ6: N/A
Remarks: the FJ6 static flow rate seems a bit on the high side, but I'm not an expert there. The impedance I measured across 6 injectors was higher by 0.4-0.5 Ohm than either other measured values or the FJ6 specs, which did surprise me.
[1] Measured by me
[2] http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm
[3] https://www.injectorrx.com/bosch-fuel-injectors/
[4] I still need to understand what this German "Hub" unit is
Update: added test fluid as per SMP's last reply to my enquiry. _________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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Last edited by furgo on Fri May 12, 2017 4:00 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21521 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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furgo wrote: |
Thanks Ray. Then also probably SMP is the only company making aftermarket injectors for the bus. I've read on other threads that Lucas made some injectors at some point too, but that was for Vanagons. Good to hear it's a well-established company, which hopefully shows in the quality of their injectors
When I first wrote the post, I had contacted SMP with an enquiry on the injector specs. Here's what they've just sent me:
Quote: |
FJ6 injector
Impedance 2.4 Ohms
Outline Type EV 1 Injector with Straight Hose
Spray Type 12° Pintle Cone Spray
Static Flow Rate 145.00 g/min ± 6%
TEST CONDITIONS
Pressure 3.0 ± 0.01 Bar
Temperature 20° ± 1°C |
Just for fun and profit, I then went along to compare these values to the 1984 Bosch datasheet for two reference injectors for the bus:
A few things caught my eye:
I assume "Pintle cone spray" means the delivery is via a pintle instead of a disc. So the same as the stock injectors.
No dynamic flow specified for the FJ6 injector. I guess most manufacturers use the static flow (i.e. injectors driven at 100% duty cycle) anyway.
No impedance value in the Bosch datasheet. I have six of the Bosch 0 280 150 105 injectors on my bench and I measured it with a good multimeter.
Static flow rate: 145 g/min (FJ6) vs 185 cc/min (Bosch). I'm not sure how to do the conversion here, as I guess it's dependent on the weight of the liquid used for testing? I can probably work it out from the use of gasoline in [2] and the conversions there.
Unrelated to the specs, but the injectors are quite cheap in price I understand they're made by SMP themselves
The specs in summary and for comparison:
Impedance:
Measured: 2.9 Ohm [1]; 2.5 Ohm [3]
Bosch datasheet: N/A
SMP FJ6: 2.4 Ohm
Static flow:
Measured: 190.2 cm3/min or 136.8 g/min [2]
Bosch datasheet: 185 cm3/min
SMP FJ6: 145 g/min
Dynamic flow:
Measured: (I can't make sense of the units at [2])
Bosch datasheet: 5.4 mm3/Hub [4]
SMP FJ6: N/A
Remarks: the FJ6 static flow rate seems a bit on the high side, but I'm not sure it makes a difference. The impedance I measured across 6 injectors was higher by 0.4-0.5 Ohm than either other measured values or the FJ6 specs, which did surprise me.
[1] Measured by me
[2] http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm
[3] https://www.injectorrx.com/bosch-fuel-injectors/
[4] I still need to understand what this German "Hub" unit is |
I may just be b8tchy...but I try not to use ANY Lucas electronic parts unless they come with a bag of spares and a tow truck
Interestingly....no one I have queried knows yet whether the FJ-114 and 116 injector I showed the picture of....are disc or actually have a pintel under a "grill". It will be interesting to see what the FJ-6 has.
There has been some SMP propaganda in various pieces of literature found that says that SMP's injectors have superior spray patterns through their nozzle design.
From digging around this morning.....apparently the FJ-114 and FJ-116 I posted a picture of...are a Lucas 3 hole nozzle "disc" injector.
Some very basic info here
http://what-when-how.com/automobile/injector-automobile/
Some interesting part # commentary here on pintle angles
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?p=772087
And this thread on the RX-7 site has some really good information on pintle angle geometry and its resulting ability to make a specific range of droplet sizes of fuel atomization.
Ray |
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
Interestingly....no one I have queried knows yet whether the FJ-114 and 116 injector I showed the picture of....are disc or actually have a pintel under a "grill". It will be interesting to see what the FJ-6 has. |
If it's just for confirming which type, I'd suggest contacting SMP directly on this one. They've been prompt to reply and helpful the two times I got in touch with them regarding the FJ6 specs. If it is for determining which ones have got the better spray pattern, well... they'll say theirs, obviously
Thanks for the links. I found the first one quite an interesting read, particulary on the Bosch L-Jetronic injectors. _________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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Anyone running these? Any more feedback on them yet? _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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As this has been revived from another thread, here's some more info about part numbers:
Standard FJ634 - same form factor (and presumably) specs as OEM, L-Jetronic connector. Listed applications: Jaguar XJS (91-84), Nissan 300ZX (86-84), Nissan Maxima (86-85), Volkswagen Campmobile (74), Volkswagen Transporter (79-74), Volkswagen Vanagon (83-80)
https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog?partdetail=FJ634
Standard FJ697 - different pintle style and hose barb than OEM, L-Jetronic connector. Listed applications: Fiat 124 (83-80), Fiat Brava (81-80), Fiat Strada (82-80), Fiat X-1/9 (83-80), Lancia Beta (81)
https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog?partdetail=FJ697
Standard FJ6 - different pintle style and hose barb than OEM, curved hose, L-Jetronic connector. Listed applications: Porsche 914 (75-74), Volkswagen 412 (74), Volkswagen Super Beetle (76-75)
https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog?partdetail=FJ6
Echlin CRB218532 - same form factor (and presumably) specs as OEM, L-Jetronic connector. Same OEM molded plastic color (teal), same OEM pintle cap style. Listed applications: none explicitly listed, but the NAPA website says: "Fits your 1979 Volkswagen Type 2"
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/CRB218532 => Reportedly these are FJ6 injectors with the wrong picture on the online catalog _________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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cellobus1 Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 284 Location: East Tennessee
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Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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I have been running Sorensen injectors from Bus Depot for a couple years now and I haven't had any problems with them. The curved hose must be removed. _________________ 1976 unrestored daily driver Standard bus, "Stella"
formerly, 1959 Standard bus
formerly, 1973 transporter which was 4 years old when it taught me to drive |
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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choogenboom Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2024 Posts: 2 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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Adding from my recent experience. I just bought "intermotor" by SMP FJ7 injectors as "new old stock" on ebay. They appear to be remanufactured and are marked with "d1620ba" which seems to be a Lucas part? Only one or two other hits on google for the part number and its all people like me asking "does anyone know what these are?". If you look close at the picture here https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog?partdetail=FJ7 you can see the same d1620ba part number. Maybe it was custom made for SMP and they are not sharing the detailed specs?
But good news is they worked well. I have a bit of a unique situation in that I have a 1971 Porsche 914 1.7L installed in a 1976 T2 bus. Best I can tell the 1971 1.7 engine was originally a D jet and the1975 2.0 bus engine was a L Jet and when the conversion was done they kept the original 1976 L jet system. The injectors that came with the bus are Bosch 0280150100 with a 185 cc/min spec flow rate. The FJ7 are spec'ed at 200 cc/min. I tuned the AFM (macro tune by removing cover and adjusting door clock spring preload, micro tune with mixture screw) using a CO meter and ears/nose to what seemed to be a happy mixture.
The FJ7 are listed as compatible with
Alfa Romeo Spider (89)
Jaguar XJS (91-84)
Triumph TR7 (81-80)
Volkswagen Beetle (79-75)
Volkswagen Campmobile (73-71)
Volkswagen Super Beetle (79-77)
Volkswagen Transporter (73-72)
If anyone has good specs on the d1620ba I would love to see them added here, thanks! |
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metahacker Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2010 Posts: 694 Location: san.diego
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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the "nicest" injector you're going to find for a Jetronic bus would be the Bus specific Bosch EV14 injectors you can get from injector-rehab
https://injector-rehab.com/shop/kgparts-products/vw-fuel-systems/
i don't know why they don't have the Bus hose-end versions listed in the ecommerce store, they said they were available on the phone and those are the ones you want (the stock replacement hose-end EV14 not the fuel rail version)
they have the fuel rail version shown there..and i'm using those..but you don't want those. they don't fit as-is.. had to make a custom AN6 fuel line and use banjo fittings .. and tweak the tin in a couple spots with a hammer. i believe the rails used to fit, then they made a couple revisions based on Vanagon WBX people's feedback/confusion and changed to ORB fittings and ... well, everything got too big to fit and they haven't test fit them since making those changes. anyways. the hose end ones go in just like stock and are cheaper, no need to fool with the rail. no real advantage.
so, what you want is their custom hose end custom Bosch EV14 injectors that they make.
like these: https://injector-rehab.com/product/vw-vanagon-4-ho...-set-of-4/
but for Bus
if you are wondering what is so special about the EV14, check out this video and fast forward to 9:30
Link
as you can see, an OG injector is spraying a poorly atomized cone,
the replacement injectors are doing better,
but the EV14 is creating a super atomized fog ..
basically this is Bosch's most current/best design injector
and they can modify to be hose-end and install like stock Bus Jetronic
here's a much shorter videlo showing a quick comparison with the 914 injectors
Link
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21521 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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metahacker wrote: |
the "nicest" injector you're going to find for a Jetronic bus would be the Bus specific Bosch EV14 injectors you can get from injector-rehab
https://injector-rehab.com/shop/kgparts-products/vw-fuel-systems/
i don't know why they don't have the Bus hose-end versions listed in the ecommerce store, they said they were available on the phone and those are the ones you want (the stock replacement hose-end EV14 not the fuel rail version)
they have the fuel rail version shown there..and i'm using those..but you don't want those. they don't fit as-is.. had to make a custom AN6 fuel line and use banjo fittings .. and tweak the tin in a couple spots with a hammer. i believe the rails used to fit, then they made a couple revisions based on Vanagon WBX people's feedback/confusion and changed to ORB fittings and ... well, everything got too big to fit and they haven't test fit them since making those changes. anyways. the hose end ones go in just like stock and are cheaper, no need to fool with the rail. no real advantage.
so, what you want is their custom hose end custom Bosch EV14 injectors that they make.
like these: https://injector-rehab.com/product/vw-vanagon-4-ho...-set-of-4/
but for Bus
if you are wondering what is so special about the EV14, check out this video and fast forward to 9:30
Link
as you can see, an OG injector is spraying a poorly atomized cone,
the replacement injectors are doing better,
but the EV14 is creating a super atomized fog ..
basically this is Bosch's most current/best design injector
and they can modify to be hose-end and install like stock Bus Jetronic
here's a much shorter videlo showing a quick comparison with the 914 injectors
Link
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Yep....one of the biggest problems with remanufactured or just rehabbed (cleaned and flowed but still ancient) is that the pintle is still almost always original.
Even if the Pintle looks damn good to the eye from the outside, the vast majority are rusted and pitted just inside the metering/sealing plate that the pintle goes through. They end up with poor spray pattern no matter how much they are cleaned.
Ev 14 have no pintles which is great!
The EV14 injectors do have very nice spray patterns and have less buildup and clogging issues. You do have to be careful on what you select for an older system because most EV14 are saturated voltage controlled injectors and may have too high of an impedance while a lot of older systems are peak and hold and have lower resistance. This obviously does not mean that ev14 do not work.
There are also some really nice injectors in the vast ev-1 family out there that even though they are rail mounted they are pretty easy to modify to use hose and clamp. A bit easier than ev14. Even some Ev6 out there that can work but the injector body is close enough to ev14 that it's not really any easier to modify than the 14s.
There are a lot of ev1s that have spray pattern augmentation devices that work pretty nicely but they are really still pintle systems....still not as good as the ev14 which is a ball valve type injector.
A really good discussion and break down of injector variations in this thread
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/comp...rs-974696/
I will also dig up a link to a site I found a couple of years ago that sells nothing but thousands of little parts for all types of injectors from inlet filters to tip sealing hardware and outlet spray grill and atomization manipulation parts. That last range of parts is one of the more interesting things they sell.
Ray |
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airkooledchris Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 2714
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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Have you ordered these, or already bought and installed them? |
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metahacker Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2010 Posts: 694 Location: san.diego
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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i have the fuel rail configuration EV14 injectors from injector rehab
and yes it's all installed and running
i rebuilt the motor and it went on with that
i had to make some changes - replaced the 4 fittings (normally it has ORB-to-AN going to AN to 90Ί barb on each side) with a simple 6AN ORB banjo fuel line that goes straight into the rail...that was necessary to make it all fit, at all.
i would strongly recommend the EV14's from that company for any Type 4 Bus, but their special hose-end versions instead..those install 100% like stock...
no need to bother with the fancy fuel rail conversion... UNLESS one is doing something special, like a Turbo...where the ability to swap out different size off-the-shelf injectors would be very useful....in that case, the fuel rail is worth the extra effort... or if you want to convert the whole car to AN fittings, then they are great for that. (PS the rails come in anodized teal....eek. ;) )
as far as injectors go, the EV14 is a well known entity as this point, a recognized top modern injector design..most injector nerds would probably say the go-to best for the money?
as for detailed test results, just got the new build back together & haven't taken it on any trips yet
can report back later, but i am hoping for improved idle/ transitory mid-range e.g. responsiveness and smog test results
in theory, it could also improve cooling, since the intake fuel charge is a vital component of cooling in an air-cooled engine, and inhaling fog instead of a triangle stream could make for an improvement
none of it should be very dramatic but we'll see
and ray yes one has to bypass the resistor box for this. they are saturated injectors, not peak/hold like the old ones.
i bought a spare resistor box from ebay...and that cool ass homie airschooled Robbie had the connectors to rewire/repin the connector to just daisy chain everything together, so the 12V wire feeds all the connectors (like it was before, but without resistors in between). i believe one could also just cut their existing wires at the resistor connector and twist them together and put some electrical tape on it, if they want to do it "a la autozone parking lot" style. :) but that is essentially all that is happening. |
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wrxnofx Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2022 Posts: 227 Location: Richfield, MN
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Aftermarket injectors |
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I bought these from Napa: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/CRB218532
Their site says they dont fit which is garbage. If memory serves I got the number off of Ratwells page.
The hose is that 90 degree elbow thing but you just straighten it out and stick it on the fuel rail which keeps it from kinking.
_________________ 1977 VW Type 2 Bay Window Westy FI |
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