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croSSeduP
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 1110
Location: Western Washington State
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 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:53 pm Post subject: Too Much End Play? |
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My 190 hp 2276 has about .008" - .010" end play. I'd like to see it around .006". When I assembled it I thought I had set it at .006". The engine has to come out for other reasons (maybe I'll share that here later), but how do I check to make sure this isn't the thrust bearing/surface wasting? Here's what I think I should do:
1.) Pull engine, check end play at flywheel near gland nut to verify measurement.
2.) If excessive, pull the flywheel and install enough shims to make the motor "lock up" when the flywheel is tightened down, though not to full torque.
3.) Now check end play. If there IS end play I've got a wasting thrust.
Is this correct?
Is it safe to re-use a HD gland nut after it has been torqued to 400-450lb ft. of torque? Also, if I've removed the flywheel do I need to replace the crankshaft/flywheel end seal?
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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1435
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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At .008" I wouldn't worry about it.
Sweating the details is great but you have two choices.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
"If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is broke.
I like to think I'm competent. You wouldn't think so if you saw me knee deep in a pile of parts after I started out chasing down one little problem. 
Or:
Dig out your trusty micrometer. Measure each shim in the stack. Replace one shim with a new shim .002" thinner.
If you're worried about your gland nut use a new one.
A new red silicone flywheel seal is generally a good idea while you can get at it.
The subjective part of the job is your motor shouldn't feel too tight when you rotate it after setting end play.
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20383
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| Quote: |
from Dusty 1's post:
Dig out your trusty micrometer. Measure each shim in the stack. Replace one shim with a new shim .002" thinner.
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Some one school me if I am wrong...
The thicker the shim stack, decreases the endplay...
The thinner the shim stack the more endplay increases.....
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Last edited by Dale M. on Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:12 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76963
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Some one school me if I am wrong...
The thicker the shim stack, decreases the endplay...
The thinner the shim stack the more endplay increases..... |
Correct.
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Glenn
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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1435
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| Quote: |
from Dusty 1's post:
Dig out your trusty micrometer. Measure each shim in the stack. Replace one shim with a new shim .002" thinner.
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Some one school me if I am wrong...
The thicker the shim stack, decreases the endplay...
The thinner the shim stack the more endplay increases..... |
Aw, shucks. Been a while since I've done this.
It would be obvious if you started out at .008", subtracted .002" and ended up with .010" end play.
You know what I mean.
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bsairhead
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Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 3590
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| I would pull the seal (makes it easier) get your fingers on the bearing and push pull on the crank pulley. If its loose you should be able to tell. |
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Busstom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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My concern with leaving the end play loose is just unnecessary longitudinal travel of the crank, but more importantly, potentially creating wear and loosening on the shoulders of the thrust saddle with unnecessary "bumping" each time the clutch is depressed. Am I overthinking it? Maybe. But keep in mind, every time the crank shifts to and fro, the big ends of the rods (shoulders/cheeks) can go with it and it puts a slight side-load on the rods.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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How many miles on the engine?
If the engine has 20,000 miles, then leave it alone.
Reuse the seal... hell no!
Reuse the gland nut, I have on stock and mild engines. For something with 190hp... i'd spend the $50 and replace it.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=634870
Remove the shim, sure a rubber mallet and push the end of the crank to the front. Use a pencil and push the thrust bearing toward the front. Now use something hard, but not metal, touch it to the shoulder of the thrust bearing and push the crank pulley to in and see if you feel any movement on the thrust bearing.
That should tell you if the bearing is worn.
Remeasure, recalculate the endplay and use the old gland nut to torque the flywheel. Now remeasure, if good, replace the old gland nun with the new.
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Glenn
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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| Busstom wrote: |
| My concern with leaving the end play loose is just unnecessary longitudinal travel of the crank, but more importantly, potentially creating wear and loosening on the shoulders of the thrust saddle with unnecessary "bumping" each time the clutch is depressed. Am I overthinking it? Maybe. But keep in mind, every time the crank shifts to and fro, the big ends of the rods (shoulders/cheeks) can go with it and it puts a slight side-load on the rods. |
I have a '71 Bus motor rebuilt once by "a reliable local rebuilder". That's an inside joke. There are no reliable local rebuilders. Anyway, despite being emblematic of everything horrible that can be done to an old dual port... it still runs o.k.. It runs o.k. with what feels like .125" end play. It's probably more like .063" but either way it's a lot. I can grab the crank pully and push the crank in and out. It makes a gentle clunk at either extreme of its travel. It's frankly pretty horrible but...
I have two dozen or so other motors so Old Clunky is way down the list to get rebuilt. It's entertaining to keep around just to freak people out.
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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| ...replace the old gland nun with the new. |
There's a joke there somewhere. 
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| Dusty1 wrote: |
| Busstom wrote: |
| My concern with leaving the end play loose is just unnecessary longitudinal travel of the crank, but more importantly, potentially creating wear and loosening on the shoulders of the thrust saddle with unnecessary "bumping" each time the clutch is depressed. Am I overthinking it? Maybe. But keep in mind, every time the crank shifts to and fro, the big ends of the rods (shoulders/cheeks) can go with it and it puts a slight side-load on the rods. |
I have a '71 Bus motor rebuilt once by "a reliable local rebuilder". That's an inside joke. There are no reliable local rebuilders. Anyway, despite being emblematic of everything horrible that can be done to an old dual port... it still runs o.k.. It runs o.k. with what feels like .125" end play. It's probably more like .063" but either way it's a lot. I can grab the crank pully and push the crank in and out. It makes a gentle clunk at either extreme of its travel. It's frankly pretty horrible but...
I have two dozen or so other motors so Old Clunky is way down the list to get rebuilt. It's entertaining to keep around just to freak people out.
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Yes, ive seen stock engines with endplay that is easily seen when pushing the pulley in and out. But that's on a stock engine with maybe 45hp... not one with 4x (190hp).
BTW, sitting at a red light with your foot on the clutch is a sure way to increase wear on the thrust.
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Glenn
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74 Thing
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Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7395
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| You can always double check the endplay on the other end at the crank pulley bolt in case you are measuring flex on the flywheel. |
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Busstom
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Joined: November 23, 2014
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Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| ...Remove the shim, sure a rubber mallet and push the end of the crank to the front. Use a pencil and push the thrust bearing toward the front. Now use something hard, but not metal, touch it to the shoulder of the thrust bearing and push the crank pulley to in and see if you feel any movement on the thrust bearing. |
I've outlined a couple different ways to do this in the past. Using this ^ technique, I like to use a soft piece of wood and a hammer/mallet to drive the #1 bearing towards the pulley until it stops, then INDICATE directly off the thrust bearing itself, THEN shove the pulley/crank forward and check end-play of the thrust bearing itself.
Of course, his #2 method works fine as well (in the original post).
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9147
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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Y'all would pass out if you knew what us long distance racers set our end play at.
If it's a fun toy, not driven a lot engine, I wouldn't worry about .010 end play.
I have reused my HD gland nut several times on my race engine. The engine is in its 5th generation and I've had the same gland nut since 2012. The last time I took it off required over 1400ft/lbs of breaking torque and it felt fine torquing it back up to over 350ft/lbs. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Too Much End Play? |
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I messed up once, I thought I had .005" and apparently it was more like .009"
Math mistake? measuring dirt or burrs? not sure what happened.
Was confident the flywheel was fully seated and it had it had near zero runout.
Big hit to my pride and sanity but I just said run it, probably going to work just fine.
Book says .007 is a wear limit but IMO it should have been .012 or .015
As long as you call it quits before it gets to .020, no more damage to anything than if you called it quits sooner. |
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