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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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 Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:49 pm Post subject: Electrical confusion |
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Hi there,
My 1967 Manx clone is almost 100% however I’m still encountering a few issues. The primary one I need to get legal is to resolve a minor electrical gremlin that has been baffling me for a bit. I’m by no means an electrician but I did go about verifying some basic things before asking this.
I got my turn signals ready to go, the only issue is that the right side is more dim than the other. I’ve changed the bulbs. Cleaned the grounds, as well as switching around plugs to verify those are all ok, everything has checked out but the Rear right taillights are significantly more dull in color compared to the left.
On top of this, the Right turn signal works fine when it is all alone, however when headlights are turned on the signal slows significantly. When the brakes are applied the signal stops entirely. The left signal has not had this issue at all. I can apply both brakes and headlights with no problems on the left side but it does happen on the right side.
If I am not signaling to the right at all but apply the brake, the right signal will turn on.
My best guess as to why this potentially is occurring is a grounding issue. Not sure why this is the case but hopefully I explained it well enough to make it easy to find a solution.
I’ll attach some pictures of the issue with the taillights.
Please let me know if any more information may be needed.
Thanks in advance! |
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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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[
One more notable thing I found when taking these pictures is when the right blinker “blinks” with the headlights on, it doesn’t fully turn off as the Left side does. The left side is a full ON/OFF blink whereas the Right (with the headlights on) goes On/dull/On/Dull
Not sure if that’s indication of the issue but hopefully it helps.
quote="Mrorangecrush77"]Hi there,
My 1967 Manx clone is almost 100% however I’m still encountering a few issues. The primary one I need to get legal is to resolve a minor electrical gremlin that has been baffling me for a bit. I’m by no means an electrician but I did go about verifying some basic things before asking this.
I got my turn signals ready to go, the only issue is that the right side is more dim than the other. I’ve changed the bulbs. Cleaned the grounds, as well as switching around plugs to verify those are all ok, everything has checked out but the Rear right taillights are significantly more dull in color compared to the left.
On top of this, the Right turn signal works fine when it is all alone, however when headlights are turned on the signal slows significantly. When the brakes are applied the signal stops entirely. The left signal has not had this issue at all. I can apply both brakes and headlights with no problems on the left side but it does happen on the right side.
If I am not signaling to the right at all but apply the brake, the right signal will turn on.
My best guess as to why this potentially is occurring is a grounding issue. Not sure why this is the case but hopefully I explained it well enough to make it easy to find a solution.
I’ll attach some pictures of the issue with the taillights.
Please let me know if any more information may be needed.
Thanks in advance![/quote] |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 1063
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| 99% chance you have faulty ground on rear right lights. Use an ohm meter to measure resistance between battery negative post and base of each rear right light bulb socket. Should show zero (especially when those bulbs should be ON). |
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Bikerndiver
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2023
Posts: 286
Location: Mid-Atlantic
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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If you have one of those aftermarket chrome switches that attach to the steering column, make sure it is grounded. Even add a ground wire under the clamp and see how that works.
_________________
1966 Manx clone (possibly a Joe Poty Enterprises) named SANDY. '70 to '73 1300 cc w/1600 DP heads, twin carbs and headers |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20909
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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Both MR Goodtunes and Bikerndriver have good suggestions.... Its where I would go first....
Basically it's checking ALL lamp grounds...
And there is no guarantee steering Column has good ground....
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Both MR Goodtunes and Bikerndriver have good suggestions.... Its where I would go first....
Basically it's checking ALL lamp grounds...
And there is no guarantee steering Column has good ground.... |
Forgive my ignorance, but when you say steering column you mean the steering shaft being grounded to the pan? Or rather the blinker assembly being properly attached to the steering shaft? |
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EVfun 
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6401
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Both MR Goodtunes and Bikerndriver have good suggestions.... Its where I would go first....
Basically it's checking ALL lamp grounds...
And there is no guarantee steering Column has good ground.... |
Forgive my ignorance, but when you say steering column you mean the steering shaft being grounded to the pan? Or rather the blinker assembly being properly attached to the steering shaft? |
Well... If you are using the stock horn system (steering wheel horn button) the steering column and the steering shaft are NOT supposed to be grounded. If they are the horn will sound. This can be a problem with the aftermarket type turn signal switches that have the built in indicator light at the end. I don't think any of them need a ground to work properly, except that the warning light won't work and should be removed (or it may become a horn indicator light and ears handle that just fine).
The above may not apply if you are using an aftermarket steering column or a steering column out of a '68 or newer Bug.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Bikerndiver
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2023
Posts: 286
Location: Mid-Atlantic
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Both MR Goodtunes and Bikerndriver have good suggestions.... Its where I would go first....
Basically it's checking ALL lamp grounds...
And there is no guarantee steering Column has good ground.... |
Forgive my ignorance, but when you say steering column you mean the steering shaft being grounded to the pan? Or rather the blinker assembly being properly attached to the steering shaft? |
If your directional signal stalk is an after market one the uses a hose clamp to attach the body of the switch to the steering shaft, that whole unit must be grounded. As stated, your column/shaft may not be grounded just because it's tied into the steering box..... Try slipping a bare copper wire under that hose clamp (if that is the type of mount you have) and then run it to a GOOD grounding bolt. See if your problems persist....
_________________
1966 Manx clone (possibly a Joe Poty Enterprises) named SANDY. '70 to '73 1300 cc w/1600 DP heads, twin carbs and headers |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20909
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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While we are focusing on steering column and turn signal switch here, I will bet problem is not with steering column ( keep in mind the "column" is outer sleeve and steering shaft is what actual turns the steering box for sake of discussion) .... IF one side works properly it pretty well eliminates the column/switch assembly.... I think the focus should be more on the grounding of the lamp assemblies on on fenders....
It would be more productive to know how you have grounded the lamp assemblies....
For instant my buggy grounding "system" was to take take the ground cable from battery directly to transaxle and I made sure the ground strap from transaxle to chassis was in place (at front transaxle mount)... The whole metal chassis becomes a ground conductor.... Front lights were then grounded to each shock tower at a common point for headlights and turn signals.... Rear was a single conductor brought up from chassis and wired (spliced) to both rear lamp assemblies .... At each point where the ground wires were attached to pan, the paint was removed and metal was brought to clean shinny surface where a light coating of dielectric grease was applied and ground wire terminal was secured with sheet metal screw.... OH YOU WILL SCREAM a grease is a non conductor, and you are correct, BUT the whole concept is a solid metal to metal contact for electrical conductivity, the grease forms a coating that keeps moisture and oxygen out on connection thusly prevent corrosion. Even use this procedure on all my terminal to wire crimp connections (quality of crimp tool and crimps are important here) ... I simply do not have electrical problems with automotive type wiring..... Buggy was last rebuilt in 2001 and to this day I have only blow one fuse in wiring process installing accessory socket to charge cell phone or tablet.... To this day all the original wiring has not has a single problem...
Have done thousands of connection this way in my career as telecommunication technician and in my personal life doing buggy/tractor/trailer wiring.... Even use "light bulb" grease on automotive bulbs and threaded in house bulbs to be sure the screw in and out with ease if you ever have to change bulb...
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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GS guy
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2007
Posts: 991
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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Adding to Dale's excellent suggestions, make sure the ground wires themselves are up to the task - they should be same gauge as the power wire feeding the circuit. If multiple smaller ground wires are ganged together, upsize the common wire that brings them back to the main grounding location (chassis, or even back to the battery.)
Jeff
_________________
70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS! |
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jspbtown
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 5272
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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My limited experience tells me that 99% of all electrical problems are located in places people "thought" they checked  |
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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
While we are focusing on steering column and turn signal switch here, I will bet problem is not with steering column ( keep in mind the "column" is outer sleeve and steering shaft is what actual turns the steering box for sake of discussion) .... IF one side works properly it pretty well eliminates the column/switch assembly.... I think the focus should be more on the grounding of the lamp assemblies on on fenders....
It would be more productive to know how you have grounded the lamp assemblies....
For instant my buggy grounding "system" was to take take the ground cable from battery directly to transaxle and I made sure the ground strap from transaxle to chassis was in place (at front transaxle mount)... The whole metal chassis becomes a ground conductor.... Front lights were then grounded to each shock tower at a common point for headlights and turn signals.... Rear was a single conductor brought up from chassis and wired (spliced) to both rear lamp assemblies .... At each point where the ground wires were attached to pan, the paint was removed and metal was brought to clean shinny surface where a light coating of dielectric grease was applied and ground wire terminal was secured with sheet metal screw.... OH YOU WILL SCREAM a grease is a non conductor, and you are correct, BUT the whole concept is a solid metal to metal contact for electrical conductivity, the grease forms a coating that keeps moisture and oxygen out on connection thusly prevent corrosion. Even use this procedure on all my terminal to wire crimp connections (quality of crimp tool and crimps are important here) ... I simply do not have electrical problems with automotive type wiring..... Buggy was last rebuilt in 2001 and to this day I have only blow one fuse in wiring process installing accessory socket to charge cell phone or tablet.... To this day all the original wiring has not has a single problem...
Have done thousands of connection this way in my career as telecommunication technician and in my personal life doing buggy/tractor/trailer wiring.... Even use "light bulb" grease on automotive bulbs and threaded in house bulbs to be sure the screw in and out with ease if you ever have to change bulb...
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Currently for the problematic side of the blinkers, the front right grounds are tied together and attached to the front beam. This includes the turn signal, the marker light, and the headlight all tied together into one ground.
The rear signals are connected to one common ground wire that the left side is also attached to, which is grounded to the engine fan shroud.
I’m not certain if that’s the proper method but I had a mechanic friend who went through and dialed in the rear blinkers which were working up until I turned on the headlights.
I’ll get some pictures if that helps as well. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20909
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
While we are focusing on steering column and turn signal switch here, I will bet problem is not with steering column ( keep in mind the "column" is outer sleeve and steering shaft is what actual turns the steering box for sake of discussion) .... IF one side works properly it pretty well eliminates the column/switch assembly.... I think the focus should be more on the grounding of the lamp assemblies on on fenders....
It would be more productive to know how you have grounded the lamp assemblies....
For instant my buggy grounding "system" was to take take the ground cable from battery directly to transaxle and I made sure the ground strap from transaxle to chassis was in place (at front transaxle mount)... The whole metal chassis becomes a ground conductor.... Front lights were then grounded to each shock tower at a common point for headlights and turn signals.... Rear was a single conductor brought up from chassis and wired (spliced) to both rear lamp assemblies .... At each point where the ground wires were attached to pan, the paint was removed and metal was brought to clean shinny surface where a light coating of dielectric grease was applied and ground wire terminal was secured with sheet metal screw.... OH YOU WILL SCREAM a grease is a non conductor, and you are correct, BUT the whole concept is a solid metal to metal contact for electrical conductivity, the grease forms a coating that keeps moisture and oxygen out on connection thusly prevent corrosion. Even use this procedure on all my terminal to wire crimp connections (quality of crimp tool and crimps are important here) ... I simply do not have electrical problems with automotive type wiring..... Buggy was last rebuilt in 2001 and to this day I have only blow one fuse in wiring process installing accessory socket to charge cell phone or tablet.... To this day all the original wiring has not has a single problem...
Have done thousands of connection this way in my career as telecommunication technician and in my personal life doing buggy/tractor/trailer wiring.... Even use "light bulb" grease on automotive bulbs and threaded in house bulbs to be sure the screw in and out with ease if you ever have to change bulb...
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Currently for the problematic side of the blinkers, the front right grounds are tied together and attached to the front beam. This includes the turn signal, the marker light, and the headlight all tied together into one ground.
The rear signals are connected to one common ground wire that the left side is also attached to, which is grounded to the engine fan shroud.
I’m not certain if that’s the proper method but I had a mechanic friend who went through and dialed in the rear blinkers which were working up until I turned on the headlights.
I’ll get some pictures if that helps as well. |
NO.. Engine fan shroud is not best palace..... Now look at each lamp sockets themselves and how well ground wires are attached to sockets.....AND you have to consider almost automotive lamps assume (bad word here "ass-u-me" ) that the lamps and holders will be attached to a metal (well grounded) body.... But this is not the case when mounted on fiberglass body....
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| Mrorangecrush77 wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
While we are focusing on steering column and turn signal switch here, I will bet problem is not with steering column ( keep in mind the "column" is outer sleeve and steering shaft is what actual turns the steering box for sake of discussion) .... IF one side works properly it pretty well eliminates the column/switch assembly.... I think the focus should be more on the grounding of the lamp assemblies on on fenders....
It would be more productive to know how you have grounded the lamp assemblies....
For instant my buggy grounding "system" was to take take the ground cable from battery directly to transaxle and I made sure the ground strap from transaxle to chassis was in place (at front transaxle mount)... The whole metal chassis becomes a ground conductor.... Front lights were then grounded to each shock tower at a common point for headlights and turn signals.... Rear was a single conductor brought up from chassis and wired (spliced) to both rear lamp assemblies .... At each point where the ground wires were attached to pan, the paint was removed and metal was brought to clean shinny surface where a light coating of dielectric grease was applied and ground wire terminal was secured with sheet metal screw.... OH YOU WILL SCREAM a grease is a non conductor, and you are correct, BUT the whole concept is a solid metal to metal contact for electrical conductivity, the grease forms a coating that keeps moisture and oxygen out on connection thusly prevent corrosion. Even use this procedure on all my terminal to wire crimp connections (quality of crimp tool and crimps are important here) ... I simply do not have electrical problems with automotive type wiring..... Buggy was last rebuilt in 2001 and to this day I have only blow one fuse in wiring process installing accessory socket to charge cell phone or tablet.... To this day all the original wiring has not has a single problem...
Have done thousands of connection this way in my career as telecommunication technician and in my personal life doing buggy/tractor/trailer wiring.... Even use "light bulb" grease on automotive bulbs and threaded in house bulbs to be sure the screw in and out with ease if you ever have to change bulb...
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Currently for the problematic side of the blinkers, the front right grounds are tied together and attached to the front beam. This includes the turn signal, the marker light, and the headlight all tied together into one ground.
The rear signals are connected to one common ground wire that the left side is also attached to, which is grounded to the engine fan shroud.
I’m not certain if that’s the proper method but I had a mechanic friend who went through and dialed in the rear blinkers which were working up until I turned on the headlights.
I’ll get some pictures if that helps as well. |
NO.. Engine fan shroud is not best palace..... Now look at each lamp sockets themselves and how well ground wires are attached to sockets.....AND you have to consider almost automotive lamps assume (bad word here "ass-u-me" ) that the lamps and holders will be attached to a metal (well grounded) body.... But this is not the case when mounted on fiberglass body.... |
Where would you recommend grounding the lamps then? Is it ok to run all 4 lights on the same grounding surface?
Currently the ground covers all 4 lights. A neighbor who is an automotive electrical technician put that together and I made the decision to ground it on the fan shroud. The grounds from those wires are just 2 pig tails comin from the lamps, the taillights obviously aren’t stock VW lights, they came off of a 65 impala so I’m not certain how they grounded on a metal car but I’d assume the fastening hardware? |
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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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Here is a picture or better idea of the current wiring setup, I actually just fixed the connectors and separated the grounds for the blinker and headlight which isn’t pictured, but hopefully that gives an idea of how it may have an issue. |
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516swg
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2024
Posts: 131
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| I went through issues as well. I found my blinker switch was goofy. It would bleed 6 volts, as well as give different voltages during operation. I think you're going to be buying a $20 flasher in the future, or two of them, the other for your hazards. To add to what others have said. Check your voltage at the bulb to the ground on it |
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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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Here is the repaired version of that wiring, little bit better than before I guess. |
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jspbtown
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 5272
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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I LOVED wiring. I found it very therapeutic. SO many details that you can really do that makes it stand out and trouble free
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Mrorangecrush77
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2022
Posts: 267
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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| jspbtown wrote: |
I LOVED wiring. I found it very therapeutic. SO many details that you can really do that makes it stand out and trouble free
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Still working on figuring out the problem, I’m considered ripping it all out and throwing a new universal wiring harness at it, any experience with those? |
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516swg
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2024
Posts: 131
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical confusion |
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DO NOT BUY A UNIVERSAL HARNESS!!!
It's not that hard. Like the lamp in your living room. It takes two to tango. You gotta have a hot and a ground. You need a good ground from the battery to the chasis. From there you ground everything.... this isn't a Volkswagen or any other car..... it's like a motorcycle , they run a ground wire for everything.
Find a wiring diagram for your car. Google has it... hook up what you know. There will only be a wire or two that you don't know where it goes, but with everything else hooked up it will be clear...
But before you replace anything..... ground everything ... don't assume a Crimp connector is good. It's not that hard. |
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