Wheel Alignment Specifications

[lateral]

Hi guys

I have a 1969 411 and have just sorted out the "shimmy" issue (I hope) in the front end (this is is another post in the forum https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=0) but would like to check that the wheel alignment is 100% correct.

I thought I saw a post somewhere here specifically about the correct procedure for wheel aligning 411's but can't find it so that is why I am creating this post.

When I purchased the car last year (2023), I asked the owner to get a wheel alignment as the car was not steering correctly and there were a few issues with the front end etc.

I have attached the report from that wheel alignment:

The following is what the Haynes manual says:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the fuel tank should be full before commencing the alignment.

Could somebody please have a look at the attachments and give me some commentsetc?

Thanks again for any help you can give me.

Cheers
Greg

[raygreenwood]

I have a complete answer coming in the am.

Ray

[lateral]

Thanks Ray

[raygreenwood]

Ok, I’ll take a crack at this.

So, let’s just remember these items up front:

We want positive toe-in (wheels pointing inward at the front)
We want negative camber (tops of wheels pointed inward)
We want negative castor (steering inclination pointed toward the front of the vehicle. In our case that means strut axis or the bottom of the strut/ball joint pointing/tilting forward).

Just remember those items.

Also, the very best written spec sheet I have is in the “Without Guesswork” book. Here is that page. There is a little more info on the facing page I will post it at some point.
It is about adjusting the axle spacing and centerline on the rear of the car. There is actually a special tool for that. For reference you can see that here in this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=933214

The alignment specs: Red are front and green are rear

So, for reference, “Total Toe”…means the total space in millimeters, inches or degrees measured between the front of the tires/wheels. This is without saying which side has more or less. Its just the total amount of toe-in in either the front or rear.

While total toe is important, its even more important that they are either equal at each side or within the allowed variance if they are different.

They do not list INDIVIDUAL numbers for each wheel but one can assume (from the listed total allowable toe-in) that each side should have 10’ +/- 7.5’….and no more difference one side to the other than 25’

As you note, from the Haynes manual: 0.6mm to 4.2mm ….equal to 20’ +/- 15’. So, before we get much further…let’s look at your numbers and convert them into degrees from millimeters so your numbers match the specification in the “Without guesswork” book and we can directly compare.


To do that:

Front:
Your Toe-in in the front looks excellent!

You could use a little more camber and since you do not have enough, they should be a little more even than they are. This is also a common issue with type 4 cars.
NOTICE….that your camber issue is tracking with your castor issue. This is significant.
So….
You have less camber on the right…but nearly perfect/spec castor on the right.
You have more camber on the left …but your castor is way off on the left
In both cases for camber and castor…the difference is ~50%-ish.

While what I am about to say will not add or fix the sadly lacking amount of camber or castor (actually as long as we have SOME negative camber at all we will be ok if that’s the best we can do)….but this next item WILL allow you to set the camber and castor nearly dead even from side to side but then you will see the BIGGEST issue/complaint with our suspension.


The big issue:
There is not enough castor built into these cars. This is why they skate from lane to lane in heavy cross winds and with certain tires we can get serious tram-lining from grooves in the road.

There is a nice chart for all of the other ACVW’s in this Samba thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=206764&postorder=desc

I tried to find a cleaner copy of this chart but it seems they are all taking this picture from the original Samba thread above.

Factory Castor angle settings for other ACVW’s:

The fractions all appear to be in 1/16th increments.

Beetle: 3.33° +/- 1.0°
Beetle convertible: 2.0° +/- 0.58°
Super Beetle: 2.0° +/- 0.58°
Bay bus: 3.0° +/- 0.67°
Type 3: 4.0° +/- 0.67°
Type 4: 1.0° 45’ +/- 0.35’

Notice how little castor the type 4 cars have. Considering that the Super Beetle suspension is “nearly” a clone of the type 4 in many ways, the type 4 should have at least what the Super Beetle has for Castor.

I believe that they learned from the issues of the earlier type 4 cars and put more castor into the Super Beetle. In reality, about 2.5° to 3.0° of Castor would be ideal as long as it’s added up to the point where it interferes with self-centering of the steering.

So, the type 4 cars have an adjusting mechanism built in that while it allows NO extra castor or camber to be added…it DOES allow shifting the castor and camber side to side to split it exactly even right and left. Here is the how it works.

First, there is a side to side slot in each side of the body with a captive nut that slides back and forth. It also has one in the rear whose slot…..ODDLY…..is fore and aft WINK…..WINK (we will discuss WHY this is and what we can do with it).

The three bolts that hold the subframe onto the chassis are bolted into these sliding captive nuts. When you loosen the bolts, you can slide the forward “T” shaped end of the subframe left or right. It pivots on the rear bolt…..BUT….the rear bolt does not slide fore or aft…so why does it have a slot????? WE will explore that later.

Here is what the slots with their captive nuts look like with the subframe removed:

Rear fore and aft slot

This is how this adjustment works:

So how do you move the subframe back and forth in small increments while aligning the car?

First, just crack the bolts open maybe ½ turn so it takes some effort to move the subframe. Then….

For orientation, here is the whole lower suspension laying upside down like you are looking from the bottom underneath the car. Notice the two little bumps the red arrows are pointing to.

Here is a closer picture of what the red arrows are pointing to. Ignore the red and yellow ring for the moment. We will get to that later.

Here is a close up detail of these slots. The red arrow points to it. The sway bar bracket you can lever against is in the left foreground and the bolt that you loosen is center right.
What these are, are slots for the end of a prybar to go into to lever against the sway bar mount to slide the subframe left and right.

So, now you know how to get the camber and castor to be set EQUAL for left and right.
The real questions are:

1. How do we get MORE castor because our factory castor setting SUCKS. Not enough castor.
2. Ok, so we can set the CAMBER equal side to side but what if that is not enough or we need more camber?

The answer to question #1 is actually pretty simple:
You elongate the front bolt mounting holes so that you can slide the whole subframe farther forward. Because that odd rear bolt is already in a slot in the body….it just allows you to slide everything forward.

I went a little overboard on mine but I had no idea how much forward movement it would require to get say 1.5° of extra castor.

This is what I did:

The yellow ring represents the original thick-wall welded in tube. I probably could have simply hogged it out about 1/8” toward the rear with a reamer but I ended up just taking a ¾” bi-metal hole saw, removing it and welded in an oval tube I made.

Its possible that there may be enough adjustment to be had just by thinning out the rearward wall of the steel tube welded in, making it just slightly oval and allowing the subframe to shift forward just a bit.
It actually looks better in person than it looks in the picture here. The nice thing about going overboard is that there will be no way that I cannot get whatever castor I need.

2. How to get more/less or adjustable camber?
I slotted the holes in the control arm mounts, welded in a couple of stops and bought some cheap eccentric bolts. Like this. This pictorial kind of tells what I did.
I selected the range of total adjustment of the eccentric bolts I picked up. I put a centerline mark on each bolt hole in the yokes that hold the control arm bushing. Then I drew out the size and shape of the slot …level. Then I used a die grinder, Dremel and files to elongate the bolt holes into slots. Then I welded steel stop tabs on each side of both bolts.

Then I added lock screws to both flanges of the eccentric bolts. WHY did I do this?
Because, you do NOT want to use high torque to lock these bolts because it squeezes/collapses the yoke that holds the control arm bushing. It wears it out. Its not necessary. You just want enough torque to hold the control arm bushing tight but you want it to turn freely. Then I used a castle nut to lock it where I wanted to have it with a cotter pin.

Looking from the front with subframe upside down so you can see the original holes for the control arm bolts.

Marking centerline and sketching out range of slots

Slots roughed in.

Original steel bushing tube from the stock control arm bushing on an eccentric bolt in the centered position. The plates to the right and left are just what I am using to verify that the eccentric bolt has enough space to roll right and left but no more than its maximum benefit.

All the way inward adjustment.

All the way outward adjustment.

Inner and outer end of camber bolt flanges showing set screw lock holes. You only need one screw at a time to lock but I wanted to make sure that there would be a threaded hole that is not open to a slot to I made three possibilities each.

This really poor picture shows it complete with stop plates welded on and painted with epoxy.

I will get to the rear alignment by tomorrow.

Ray

[lateral]

Thanks Ray!

[raygreenwood]