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tim3
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Joined: February 01, 2004
Posts: 558
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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 Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2024 5:06 pm Post subject: Gap on top of strut cap? Wth? |
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This gap on the top of the strut looks wrong. Whats your thoughts Ray?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23002
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2024 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Gap on top of strut cap? Wth? |
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| tim3 wrote: |
This gap on the top of the strut looks wrong. Whats your thoughts Ray?
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Hmmm....going to ask a few things that may seem obvious or stupid but I need to get an idea of what the complete "stack-up" is on your struts.
Your car is a 1974 correct?
If so and if it has the correct strut cartridges and all of the correct parts....
1. Is that top nut tightened all the way down? Just have to ask. It looks right.
2. Under that black "dish" that the nut is tightened on top of....you can see the top dome of the bearing cartridge (that gold chromate looking dome).
In the middle of that should be a spacer tube that slips around the strut rod. That spacer tube is supposed to be flush with the top of the gold bearing cartridge or even slightly below the surface.
There should (at this moment) be no washers between that black dish shaped spacer under the nut and the gold dome of the bearing.
So....assuming you have all the correct parts, bump stop and spacer down below.....the most common thing that causes that gap....is that the rubber donut has gone "mushy" on you.
This is actually a big problem. Its really hard to find decent ones. Some of them come in the box the correct size and shape and fairly quickly once the weight of the car is on it....its too soft and the gold colored bearing cup stretches upward and you get that gap....which sucks to drive on because it beats up that nylond ring and that upper black cap.
The other problem I have found just as much is that you buy rubber donuts an they come out of the box, fit really well in the strut mount...but are about 1/2" too thin to start with. I have notes about this in my "how to" for the front struts of 1974.
So, since there are no bushings really available for 412....you are stuck using Super Beetle bushings. While they "should" be the same.....not quite really. Not 100% depending on brand.
Right now at Rock Auto they list just the donut as Gabriel part # 142251. UIt is out of stock. I need to look to see if that was one of the "thin" ones.
They also list Westar ST1941 and FVP ST1941.
Both of these are actually the bonded bearing shell/cone inside of the rubber.
These CAN fix your problem but they actually are very late super beetle and are technically bearing/bushing assemblies from a Mk1 rabbit. They will be a tight fit and you may need to do some shimming between the black dish shaped cap and the top of the bearing cartridge to prevent dragging.
Let me look around and see what I can find. Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23002
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Gap on top of strut cap? Wth? |
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The normal rubber donuts I have listed in the last post are almost "unobtanium".
And, as I mention in this thread....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764509
Most of them are either too short or too soft or both. In both cases, the rubber donut issue ends up giving you the problem you are seeing.
Here is the easiest way to explain what the issue is. Its all in that thread link above:
This is the normal stack up of parts without the strut mounting plate and rubber donut so you can see what it should look like when everything is correct.
With the strut mounting plate installed and therubber donut in place....the cone/wedge shaped donut (blue) fits tightly inside of the steel strut mount shell (green)....and the little dished shaped cap under the nut on top sits anywhere from about 5mm maximum to about 3mm above the rim of the strut mount plate (green)
But...when the rubber donut is either too thin (very common) or too soft (just as common)....that gold colored bearing shell stretches itself upward allowing the strut mounting plate to drop lower.
This makes for a big ugly gap between the top dish shaped plate under the nut and the edge of the opening for the strut mount plate. Like this...
So, since its hard to buy just the donut and even harder to know if what you are getting is worth a crap....
Just buy the complete Monroe (or similar) bushing/bearing assembly. This is listed to fit VW Fox 1987 to 1993 and VW super beetle 1973 to 1979. Its number is Monroe 901941.
But...most people are out of the Monroe part. I don't think its made anymore but plenty of people make a version of it.
Look at VW fox in Rockauto and they have plenty of them. All of the daily driver brands are out of stock but there is this listing that shows the API part for about $4 each as a closeout price. At that cheap price, its worth it just to see if its a good part.
So...installing this part will initially be a tight fit in your strut mounting plate. Because the rubber angle is slightly different, it will take a few days of driving to compact it down for a nice fit.
So when you install it, to keep the dished plate under the nut from being too tight, put a few washers between the plate and the bearing on the strut rod to set the correct 3-5mm gap.
Then when you have driven it a little and the gap has increased, remove the nut and dished plate...pull the washers out...and install the plate and nut and you will be just fine.
Because of how the rubber is overmolded on the bearing, this will raise you front end by maybe 1/4". Ray |
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tim3
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23002
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2024 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Gap on top of strut cap? Wth? |
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It "might"....."might".
I have purchased a set of those already that were the same brand listed as "Cip1 five star". The metal part and threaded studs were excellent quality. The bearing cartridge is just fine....(any basic ball bearing would be in this part). I just used the rubber donuts out of them. In my original mounts.
However, the rubber parts were SLIGHTLY too thin when compared to the used ones I had. But since they had a slightly smaller ID to make the bearing cone sit better/farther down....they SEEMED to go together well....so I risked it and installed them on my car.
They did well when first installed......until.......about 6 months later... still sitting in the garage with "0" miles on them......they sagged and now one of of my struts has bigger gap than yours do.
The other one is larger than it started out...but still barely in spec. I expect it will keep getting worse.
I pulled the top plate and checked the durometer of the rubber donuts (I should have done that in the first place).
The left side donut is ~20% softer than factory and the right is ~10% softer than factory.
I got them from Cip1 for a little less than half what they are asking for them now in the link you posted. But that was four years ago. Everything is double in cost now compared to what it was.
IIRC....a couple of other people in the last couple of years have bought them and they did ok....so far as when first installed.
If they were still cheaper....I think it would be worth the risk to try them and see if they have improved. The main problem is that you won't know if they are going to fail and give you the same problem until you have driven on them for a while. At that point you won't be able to return them and will have wasted ~$150 with shipping.
I would go for the VW Fox Super Beetle bonded style bushing/bearing which installs in your existing mounting plate....and just do the adjustments as they settle in.....which can be done without removing the struts from the car. There are some available on closeout at Rockauto for $4 each in that screen shot I posted....or there are others available for about $12 each.
There are also quite a few places that have the Super Beetle/ fox bushing/bearing assembly.
If you want to roll the dice and pay a little less just to see how the quality is on Cip1 "five star" brand strut parts....you might order these instead of complete strut mounts. The work replacing them is the same but if they are too soft and crap out....you are out only about 20% what you would be buying the complete mount.
They are only $22 for a PAIR.
https://www2.cip1.com/VWC-823-412-355-2/?gad_sourc...hsQAvD_BwE
Ray |
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