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Kritas
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2025
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL
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 Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 12:58 pm Post subject: Zink Formula Vee car |
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I purchased the car a couple of weeks ago and have been tinkering with it ever since. This is my first VW-based project. The car has a later 1600cc engine that isn't legal in FV, but I figured I'd get it running. I'm going to have to build or buy a correct engine. The 1600 block is a casting beginning with AM. From my research, it's a block that was sold as a replacement.
The car came with a 1200cc engine, a transmission, a bare block, and a later ball joint front end as extras. I'm guessing that someone started swapping parts to run the car in Formula First.
I went through the process of checking the points gap, installing new plugs and wires and inspecting everything. I was puzzled by the lack of fuel to the engine and replaced the fuel pump. That didn't solve the problem, and a bit of research led me to checking the length of the fuel pump pushrod. It's a 108mm rod and should be 100mm if my facts are correct. I've ordered a new rod and the Bakelite housing.
Is there anything else I should check while I'm working on the fuel pump? I suspect it's quite likely that the new fuel pump was damaged by using the longer pushrod. I've watched a few videos about how to check the height of the pushrod before installing the next pump. The engine was run on starting fluid for a short time with the longer pushrod in place.
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SilverThing
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004
Posts: 836
Location: Everett
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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Welcome to the forums!
I don't know if the vintage speed forum is the best place for formula vee (or formula first) related stuff, but if it isn't, I am sure one of the moderators will help put this in the right category. I also have a F/V project, but it has a few other projects ahead of it in priority.
I will say that AM code engines are from VW Things and are not generic replacement cases. I have no clue on where those lists that float around the internet got the idea that AM is a replacement case. I have never seen it listed as such in official VW documentation. I have, however, seen it listed as a Thing case in multiple pieces of VW documents. Just off the top of my head there is a bulletin dated 1973 to the official repair manuals supplied to dealers (I have it for both the English and German manuals) and the engine code is listed in VW exchange parts catalogs from the 1974/1975 time frame. Oh and VW microfiches also list the AM code as US market Thing engines.
Do you have any pictures of the pump in question? That might help us identify which pushrod you need.
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"I like how everyone likes talking about Zeke's Thing yet he's the only one that's ever seen it." - Katie
"I've seen pictures..." - Jeremy |
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Kritas
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2025
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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| SilverThing wrote: |
Welcome to the forums!
I don't know if the vintage speed forum is the best place for formula vee (or formula first) related stuff, but if it isn't, I am sure one of the moderators will help put this in the right category. I also have a F/V project, but it has a few other projects ahead of it in priority.
I will say that AM code engines are from VW Things and are not generic replacement cases. I have no clue on where those lists that float around the internet got the idea that AM is a replacement case. I have never seen it listed as such in official VW documentation. I have, however, seen it listed as a Thing case in multiple pieces of VW documents. Just off the top of my head there is a bulletin dated 1973 to the official repair manuals supplied to dealers (I have it for both the English and German manuals) and the engine code is listed in VW exchange parts catalogs from the 1974/1975 time frame. Oh and VW microfiches also list the AM code as US market Thing engines.
Do you have any pictures of the pump in question? That might help us identify which pushrod you need. |
Thanks for that info on the AM block, it's a big help. As for the forum choice, I searched "vee" and most of the threads seemed to be posted here, so I followed suit.
Here is a photo of the pump that was on the engine. It is taller than the replacement pump that I ordered for a 1600 engine. My theory is that it is for an engine with a generator which would give more headroom for a taller pump to my eye.
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halfassleatherworks
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2018
Posts: 747
Location: Reno NV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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Welcome
The ball joint front end will not fit the car without a adaptor and some mods,
sell it.
As for the AM Case listed as a generic replacement cases.
My quick reference for cases is the J Bugs listing.
https://www.jbugs.com/VW-Tech-Article-Engine-Letter-Codes.html
and the AM is listed there as a replacement case. just info and no augment if wrong. |
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Kritas
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2025
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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| halfassleatherworks wrote: |
Welcome
The ball joint front end will not fit the car without a adaptor and some mods,
sell it.
As for the AM Case listed as a generic replacement cases.
My quick reference for cases is the J Bugs listing.
https://www.jbugs.com/VW-Tech-Article-Engine-Letter-Codes.html
and the AM is listed there as a replacement case. just info and no augment if wrong. |
Good points. I plan to sell off the front end as it's extra work and storage space and the Formula First drivers seem to agree that a converted Z5 isn't going to be competitive in that class. Even the Samba site lists the AM case as a generic replacement, but there seems to be some disagreement on that.
I checked the extra block this morning and it's another 1600 block. The seller told me it'd been extensively machined and was a 1200 block. Ah well, I can find a home for it as well. I think the best thing is to build up a 1200 and move forward.
The extra almost-complete engine is supposed to be a 1200 but has no serial number stamped on the generator bracket. I need to look it over more carefully for identification. |
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SilverThing
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004
Posts: 836
Location: Everett
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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AA lists 40hp cylinders for 1600 blocks. I'll have to double check, but I am pretty sure how my vee's engine was built by the previous owner.
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"I like how everyone likes talking about Zeke's Thing yet he's the only one that's ever seen it." - Katie
"I've seen pictures..." - Jeremy |
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Teeroy 
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003
Posts: 3819
Location: Eastern WA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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Late 40 hp cases (D stamp) have 1600 size cylinder bores, the AA P&C sets are for those. So with the AA P&Cs and a 64mm crank you can build a 1200cc with a brand new magnesium or aluminum block. You will need 1200 heads, pushrods/tubes, tins, intake & exhaust.
I don't recall VW using AM as a case number prefix. If that is in a rule book, they are probably referencing aftermarket (AM) , not a VW number
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Kritas
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2025
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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| Teeroy wrote: |
Late 40 hp cases (D stamp) have 1600 size cylinder bores, the AA P&C sets are for those. So with the AA P&Cs and a 64mm crank you can build a 1200cc with a brand new magnesium or aluminum block. You will need 1200 heads, pushrods/tubes, tins, intake & exhaust.
I don't recall VW using AM as a case number prefix. If that is in a rule book, they are probably referencing aftermarket (AM) , not a VW number |
Thanks, that's great info. I have two engines, a 1600 (complete) and a 1200 (mostly complete) along with an extra 1600 block. It sounds like there are enough pieces to put together a solid 1200 engine that would be legal in class. The rules don't specify casting numbers, only that cases be Type I or Type III single or dual relief.
One problem with using the 1600 engine is that the Z bar doesn't fit. That's according to other sources. The Z bar on my car has been removed. I assume that was to fit the larger engine, and the bar was set aside and not included in a previous sale of the car.
I'm guessing that P&C is pistons and cylinders? I've bought some parts from AA performance and have been looking at their kits.
As an update, changing the fuel pump pushrod to the 100mm rod and matching pump didn't solve the problem of having no fuel pressure. The rod doesn't move up and down at all when I rotate the engine clockwise. I'm aware that it takes two turns to move the rod. The next step is to pull the distributor again and have a look at it and beneath it. |
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Teeroy
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003
Posts: 3819
Location: Eastern WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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Only difference In dimensions is a 1600 is wider. If you build a 1200 out of a 1600 case, it will be the same width as a 1200, the blocks are the same physical size. Yes P&C is piston and cylinder
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Kritas
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2025
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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| Teeroy wrote: |
| Only difference In dimensions is a 1600 is wider. If you build a 1200 out of a 1600 case, it will be the same width as a 1200, the blocks are the same physical size. Yes P&C is piston and cylinder |
That's great to hear, thanks. I got the info on the Z bar from a Vee forum. I'd like to be able to fit one, but they are specific to Zinks and are very hard to find. |
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SilverThing
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004
Posts: 836
Location: Everett
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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Trying not to derail things too much, but AM is a VW engine code for US market Things (181). There are all sorts of engine and transmission code lists out there that aren’t well sourced and have known inaccuracies.
To support my claim, below is a scan of the VW bulletin (front and back) I have on the introduction of the AM engine. My VW hobby started out with the 181/Thing and I have collected a lot of documents relating to it over the years.
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"I like how everyone likes talking about Zeke's Thing yet he's the only one that's ever seen it." - Katie
"I've seen pictures..." - Jeremy |
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Teeroy
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003
Posts: 3819
Location: Eastern WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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Learned something new today.
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 10377
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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| Teeroy wrote: |
| Late 40 hp cases (D stamp) have 1600 size cylinder bores, the AA P&C sets are for those. So with the AA P&Cs and a 64mm crank you can build a 1200cc with a brand new magnesium or aluminum block. You will need 1200 heads, pushrods/tubes, tins, intake & exhaust. |
Original 1200 cc 40 hp engines had connecting rods that were wider at the big end than rods for 1300 & bigger engines. The 1200's crankshafts had narrower crank cheeks. If you want to fit a set of original 40 hp rods to a 1300 & later 69 mm crank which have thicker crank cheeks, you need to shave the sides off the rods' big ends.
I don't know if the AA "late" 1200 cc P&C have wrist pins in the size of 1300 and later P&C (22 mm IIRC) or if they are the smaller diameter of original 40 hp pistons (20 mm).
OP, the crankshaft MAIN bearings are the same for 1200 cc 40 hp as well as for later engines. If you see a NOS set of such bearings which are still marked in German, the box will usually list "ab 34 PS" which stands for "as of 34 hp"- the Germans used the DIN power rating for engines; 34 hp is the equivalent of 40 hp (SAE net rating). |
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Teeroy
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003
Posts: 3819
Location: Eastern WA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2025 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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I was assuming he was using the 40hp crank and rods, but I should have included them in the list
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Kritas
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2025
Posts: 6
Location: Birmingham, AL
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2025 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Zink Formula Vee car |
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| Great info, guys. I really appreciate it. SilverThing, I found some of your old posts regarding the AM blocks earlier in the week and read them. Thanks for that. |
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