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EVfun 
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6006
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| JoePolo wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| Sounds like you have the right collection of parts. Always interesting how these cars get updated in different ways. You have newer brakes with a stock 3 syncro box, I've got the later 4 syncro box but still have the early brakes. I will fit a '65-'66 master cylinder to lower pedal effort next time that part comes due to reduce the pedal effort to feel more like the '58-'64 brakes. |
Good tip on the brake master cylinder, I’m interested in doing dual circuit for sure. My transaxle is a later actually according the serial number from a 68-72. |
Dual circuit started in 1967 and is a good upgrade to do. I have done that to my beach buggy, which runs '64 brakes. The '65-'66 master cylinder was still single circuit, but a smaller 17mm bore (all other years since the split window era used a master cylinder with a 19mm bore.) The smaller bore master cylinder reduces pedal effort. The smaller bore wheel cylinders used on oval window Bugs increases pedal effort compared to later brakes. The 2 effects just about cancel each other out, making the pedal effort of the oval brakes similar to later Bug brakes. Since you have later brakes I would suggest the dual circuit upgrade over further reducing pedal effort.
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JoePolo
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Joined: September 04, 2017
Posts: 38
Location: South San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| EVfun wrote: |
Dual circuit started in 1967 and is a good upgrade to do. I have done that to my beach buggy, which runs '64 brakes. The '65-'66 master cylinder was still single circuit, but a smaller 17mm bore (all other years since the split window era used a master cylinder with a 19mm bore.) The smaller bore master cylinder reduces pedal effort. The smaller bore wheel cylinders used on oval window Bugs increases pedal effort compared to later brakes. The 2 effects just about cancel each other out, making the pedal effort of the oval brakes similar to later Bug brakes. Since you have later brakes I would suggest the dual circuit upgrade over further reducing pedal effort.
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Awesome thanks I didn’t know all that. I probably will do the master soon, as when driving today the pedal doesn’t do much for the first half of the movement then works down low and I know everything is bled good. They work about the same as before honestly with the old 57 brakes on there. |
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SixVolt
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Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1139
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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View of my left rear (driver's side) brake cable entering from the back bottom of the backing plate on my '57 Oval.
My '57 beetle has a split case trans with major leakage. I have a replacement rebuilt '63 trans with 58-64 axles and axle tubes. I have the 58-64 rear backing plates. but would have to buy 58-64 drums and new axle bearings and brake hardware if I go all in on a 58-64 set up. If I do all that can I still use my rear entry oval brake cables by installing the 58-64 backing plates on opposite sides? Or will I have to replace the cables as well?
I'm guessing I can't use the oval backing plates with 58-64 axle tubes and axle cover? Is that right? Even if I want to keep the oval rear drums? Since they do match the oval backing plates, but not the 58-64 backing plates? |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 6262
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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SixVolt, I have just been down this road and did document the difference in early vs late axle tubes, backing plates, and bearing retainers. Check page 3 of my vert thread to see all the measurements, it's enough to confuse anyone though
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40
The short answer is, you can put oval drums and backing plates on a later axle tube, but you 'might' have to shave this lip down a little bit, so it doesn't stick out past the brake backing plate. You will also need to use the later bearing retainers.
You can also swap later backing plates side to side so the rear entry matches the brake cables, but the later backing plates only work with later drums.
SD
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1139
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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Thank you for the information and the link to that awesome thread. Wow! The detail is impressive.
I'm normally a stock guy, but my Oval was altered a bit over time before it came to me. I put disc brakes up front and my 36HP is not original to the car. The interior is from Wolfsburg and while the paint (polar silver) is an original color this car started out as coral red. A prior owner changed it. Unfortunately for me, coral red is my favorite color. I've kept it six volt. I have a rebuilt '63 trans since my split case (from another '57) is leaking from every cavity known to man. So that's why I'm trying to sort out the rear brake issue. I have the best local VW bus mechanic around doing this for me, but there are always little differences in braking between the bugs and buses and I'm trying to sort out what will match up without compromising safety. Thanks again!
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hsosa1
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Joined: January 17, 2005
Posts: 1923
Location: Fontana
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| 64-67luke wrote: |
You can see the sides of the backing plate are gong to touch the bearing cap. this needs grinding enough to clear to allow the bearing cap to fit in place. |
thanks for this im going thru a 56 build with the exact set up with rear brakes . thanks for the post
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1139
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2025 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| esde wrote: |
SixVolt, I have just been down this road and did document the difference in early vs late axle tubes, backing plates, and bearing retainers. Check page 3 of my vert thread to see all the measurements, it's enough to confuse anyone though
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40
The short answer is, you can put oval drums and backing plates on a later axle tube, but you 'might' have to shave this lip down a little bit, so it doesn't stick out past the brake backing plate. You will also need to use the later bearing retainers.
You can also swap later backing plates side to side so the rear entry matches the brake cables, but the later backing plates only work with later drums.
SD |
Looking back on this thread after a full year of inaction and I need to act. I'd like to ask my question with a different twist. Assuming I can remove the split case axle tubes from my 57 split case trans, while leaving the actual split axles in the split case trans, will those split case axle tubes bolt up directly to a 63 trans? And can I use use '58 - 64 axles with the split case axle tubes? Can I then just use my '57 and down split case backing plates, drums, brake hardware and bearings? In other words, can I just use my '57 down split axle tubes with '58-'64 axles with the '63 transmission center section? |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6006
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2025 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
| Looking back on this thread after a full year of inaction and I need to act. I'd like to ask my question with a different twist. Assuming I can remove the split case axle tubes from my 57 split case trans, while leaving the actual split axles in the split case trans, will those split case axle tubes bolt up directly to a 63 trans? And can I use use '58 - 64 axles with the split case axle tubes? Can I then just use my '57 and down split case backing plates, drums, brake hardware and bearings? In other words, can I just use my '57 down split axle tubes with '58-'64 axles with the '63 transmission center section? |
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes, be sure to use the axle bearing caps that came with the oval window axle tubes.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 6262
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2025 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
Looking back on this thread after a full year of inaction and I need to act. I'd like to ask my question with a different twist. Assuming I can remove the split case axle tubes from my 57 split case trans, while leaving the actual split axles in the split case trans, will those split case axle tubes bolt up directly to a 63 trans? And can I use use '58 - 64 axles with the split case axle tubes? Can I then just use my '57 and down split case backing plates, drums, brake hardware and bearings? In other words, can I just use my '57 down split axle tubes with '58-'64 axles with the '63 transmission center section? |
So, in a nutshell, as EVfun posted, yes.
BUT, measure the thickness of your early backing plates and compare it to the later backing plates.. the difference is the amount of play the bearing will have to move side to side after using later backing plates.
I milled the bearing cap so the bearing had no side to side play, as I had gear oil leaks that I suspect were related. But, then I found a friend had don the same swap and just left everything as stock with no leaks; perhaps as they say ignorance is bliss ..... 
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SixVolt
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Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1139
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2025 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| esde wrote: |
| SixVolt wrote: |
Looking back on this thread after a full year of inaction and I need to act. I'd like to ask my question with a different twist. Assuming I can remove the split case axle tubes from my 57 split case trans, while leaving the actual split axles in the split case trans, will those split case axle tubes bolt up directly to a 63 trans? And can I use use '58 - 64 axles with the split case axle tubes? Can I then just use my '57 and down split case backing plates, drums, brake hardware and bearings? In other words, can I just use my '57 down split axle tubes with '58-'64 axles with the '63 transmission center section? |
So, in a nutshell, as EVfun posted, yes.
BUT, measure the thickness of your early backing plates and compare it to the later backing plates.. the difference is the amount of play the bearing will have to move side to side after using later backing plates.
I milled the bearing cap so the bearing had no side to side play, as I had gear oil leaks that I suspect were related. But, then I found a friend had don the same swap and just left everything as stock with no leaks; perhaps as they say ignorance is bliss ..... |
Appreciate these responses. Just to be sure I'm understanding what's being said, I want to use the oval backing plates, with the oval axle tubes, the oval bearing cap, oval bearings. and the oval brake hardware. The only things (other than the later '63 trans) I intend to use are the '58 - '64 axles. Will I be ok with the oval backing plate thickness? |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6006
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2025 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| esde wrote: |
| SixVolt wrote: |
Looking back on this thread after a full year of inaction and I need to act. I'd like to ask my question with a different twist. Assuming I can remove the split case axle tubes from my 57 split case trans, while leaving the actual split axles in the split case trans, will those split case axle tubes bolt up directly to a 63 trans? And can I use use '58 - 64 axles with the split case axle tubes? Can I then just use my '57 and down split case backing plates, drums, brake hardware and bearings? In other words, can I just use my '57 down split axle tubes with '58-'64 axles with the '63 transmission center section? |
So, in a nutshell, as EVfun posted, yes.
BUT, measure the thickness of your early backing plates and compare it to the later backing plates.. the difference is the amount of play the bearing will have to move side to side after using later backing plates.
I milled the bearing cap so the bearing had no side to side play, as I had gear oil leaks that I suspect were related. But, then I found a friend had don the same swap and just left everything as stock with no leaks; perhaps as they say ignorance is bliss ..... |
The backing plate thickness issue shouldn't be an issue because he wants to use the oval axle tubes and bearing caps with the oval backing plates.
It is possible that he will find no plastic "daisies" on the splitcase transaxle. They follow the side covers, not the axle tube covers, so he would want to keep the daisies.
Since parts are being swapped the number of gaskets needed for the axle tubes will need to be recalculated, but that is pretty simple. You want the tubes to move with easily, but not fall loosely. Half the time you have to do this when you don't change parts because the gasket(s) are stuck together and you can get a good measurement.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 6262
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2025 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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Ahhhh, I misread the question. Damned me for trying to post after reading on my phone... damned eyesight going at 52 
FWIW, use the plastic daisy with a tunnel style case, and no daisy with a split case.
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SixVolt
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Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1139
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Edit: 57 Rear Brakes to 58-64 Brakes |
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| esde wrote: |
Ahhhh, I misread the question. Damned me for trying to post after reading on my phone... damned eyesight going at 52
FWIW, use the plastic daisy with a tunnel style case, and no daisy with a split case. |
I have the daisey cups for the 63 trans.
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